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#1162513 - 09/07/18 09:45 PM 2018 Darkside list
flotsam Offline
Staff Reviewer
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 4215
Loc: Long Beach NSW Australia
Hi all
Now is the annual time to list those 13 Dark Side games that other people should play. It doesn't matter what you list, so long as its the type of game discussed here, and you reckon someone should play it.
You get a bit longer this year. Its normally 13 days but I will be away so it will be more like 18. Plenty of time for plenty of people to take part!
If a game made the light side list, don't worry - there are shades of light and dark so those games aren't excluded here (even if you listed them over there) Candle and Portal 2 spring to mind.
Even though its dark, there are rules:

1. You can recommend a maximum of 13 games, but are allowed to recommend less.
2. You can't list a series, unless you use single votes for each game.
3. Expansion packs, DLC, GOTY releases etc are all considered the same game - just vote for eg Fallout 3 and ignore all its available added on bits.
4. Consistent with 3, enhanced editions, directors cuts etc are also considered the same game.
5. Any "dark" game (ie not pure adventure or casual) can be listed, irrespective of genre.
6. You don't have to indicate the type or genre, and you are not limited to any specific number of games in any genre. Go ahead and list 13 fps' if you want to.
7. It is essentially a pc list (the system not the games), but given that many players have other systems, if you want to list some games for those go ahead.

If you can list alphabetically it helps me count, and please use full names if possible so I don't get them mixed up. I will ask if I get confused.
See you in a couple of weeks taz
_________________________
Quantity has a quality all of its own

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#1162516 - 09/07/18 10:58 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Trail_Mystic Offline
Dragon Breath - Darkside Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6294
Loc: Wisconsin
Thanks Flotsam! Safe Travels.

Topic Stickied. thumbsup
_________________________
"A world is supported by four things: The learning of the wise, the justice of the great, the prayers of the righteous, the valor of the brave, but all of these are as nothing without a ruler who knows the art of ruling - Make that the science of your tradition."

The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam from the novel Dune

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#1162589 - 09/08/18 12:28 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: Trail_Mystic]
Mad Offline
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 28778
Loc: United Kingdom
Here are my picks smile

Baldur’s Gate
Divine Divinity
Gothic II [Night of the Raven]
Hero U : Rogue to Redemption
Jade Empire
Knights of the Old Republic
Might & Magic VI
Morrowind
Planescape Torment
Quest for Glory IV
Return to Krondor
Risen
Witcher [The]
_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#1162689 - 09/09/18 09:24 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Trail_Mystic Offline
Dragon Breath - Darkside Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6294
Loc: Wisconsin
Advent Rising
Crysis
Darksiders: Warmastered Edition
Divinity: Original Sin 2
Dragonage: Origins
Freedom Force
Mirror’s Edge
Pillars of Eternity
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Shadowrun: Hong Kong
Spell Force 2
Tyranny
Witcher 3: Wild Hunt

dance C'mon folks, even if you only have a few to list, go for it! It's not a requirement to list out a full 13, so if you're just a now-and-then Darkside player go ahead and put it out there. We don't bite, most of the time! grin


Edited by Trail_Mystic (09/12/18 10:44 AM)
_________________________
"A world is supported by four things: The learning of the wise, the justice of the great, the prayers of the righteous, the valor of the brave, but all of these are as nothing without a ruler who knows the art of ruling - Make that the science of your tradition."

The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam from the novel Dune

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#1163011 - 09/13/18 07:37 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: Trail_Mystic]
Marian Offline
Global Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 07/04/00
Posts: 35413
Loc: near Yosemite in California
Anachronox
Anvil of Dawn
Baldur's Gate II
Divine Divinity
Dragon Riders: Chronicles of Pern
Lands of Lore 3
Might and Magic VI
Quest for Glory
Quest for Glory IV
Return to Krondor
Witcher, The
Zanzarah

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#1163038 - 09/14/18 12:46 AM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
hagatha Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 11/19/00
Posts: 5106
Loc: Campbell River, B.C. Canada
Sorry about the lurking...have company from Ontario this week.

Bioshock
Deus Ex Goty
Dragon Age: Origins
Dragon Age: Inquisitor
Dishonored
Fallout: New Vegas
Fallout 4
Half Life 2
Morrowind
Pillars of Eternity 2
Skyrim
System Shock 2
Witcher 3
_________________________
No fancy-pantsy Elven dagger-twirlers. Just tough guys.

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#1163064 - 09/14/18 10:29 AM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Draclvr Offline
Hints & Glitches forum Moderator
Adept Boomer

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 13634
Loc: In Missouri near St. Louis
I know! I need to get my list posted... I am buried in tomatoes right now!
_________________________
In my PC corner for the winter, my little heater by my side, to game, read and knit.

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#1163107 - 09/14/18 06:27 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: Draclvr]
Trail_Mystic Offline
Dragon Breath - Darkside Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6294
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Draclvr
I know! I need to get my list posted... I am buried in tomatoes right now!


Tomatoes, shmomatoes, let's get that list! lol
_________________________
"A world is supported by four things: The learning of the wise, the justice of the great, the prayers of the righteous, the valor of the brave, but all of these are as nothing without a ruler who knows the art of ruling - Make that the science of your tradition."

The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam from the novel Dune

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#1163125 - 09/14/18 10:00 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Draclvr Offline
Hints & Glitches forum Moderator
Adept Boomer

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 13634
Loc: In Missouri near St. Louis
Maybe tomorrow! I'm up to 28 gallons of canned spaghetti sauce, chili sauce, salsa, pizza sauce and tomato soup!
_________________________
In my PC corner for the winter, my little heater by my side, to game, read and knit.

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#1163131 - 09/14/18 11:59 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: Draclvr]
Mad Offline
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 28778
Loc: United Kingdom
I'm sure I just heard the word "tomato" whispered somewhere evil evil evil
_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#1163416 - 09/17/18 10:02 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Draclvr Offline
Hints & Glitches forum Moderator
Adept Boomer

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 13634
Loc: In Missouri near St. Louis
American McGee's Alice
Bioshock 1
Bioshock 2
Clive Barker's Undying
Hobbit, The
Metro Last Light
Middle Earth Shadow of Mordor
Prey 1
Prey 2
SOMA
Vampire Bloodlines
Vampire The Last Masquerade
Witcher, The
Zanzarah

I'll probably think of others to add!



_________________________
In my PC corner for the winter, my little heater by my side, to game, read and knit.

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#1163800 - 09/22/18 12:03 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Jacline Offline
Shy Boomer

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 92
Loc: Longueuil Qc
Divine Divinity
Dragon Age Origin
Dragon Age Inquisition
Elex
Enderal
Fallout New Vegas
Gothic 2
Kingdom of Amalur Reckoning
Mass Effect Andromeda
Morrowind
Skyrim
the Witcher

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#1163916 - 09/23/18 05:58 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 39287
Loc: southeast USA
Is there a reason why the Darkside list doesn't have a
"Hall of Fame" like the Adventure list?
Also a maximum of only 13 games per list compared to 20?

American McGee's Alice
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
Divine Divinity
Divinity: Original Sin
Drakan: Order of the Flame
Dungeon Keeper 2
Dungeon Siege
Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven
Might and Magic VII: For Blood and Honor
Pillars of Eternity
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
Tomb Raider (1996 version)
Two Worlds


I "would" recommend Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, but only with the restored content mod, which isn't how it comes when you buy it. So it doesn't make the list.

Zanzarah also doesn't make my list, this time because I don't think it works on anything later than XP.

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#1163918 - 09/23/18 06:18 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: Jenny100]
Marian Offline
Global Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 07/04/00
Posts: 35413
Loc: near Yosemite in California
Jenny, Zanzarah is on Steam and has been for quite a while, tweaked to run on newer systems. I keep hoping that GOG will get it also, but thus far no luck. It works fine on my Windows 7 computer.

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#1163919 - 09/23/18 07:10 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: Jenny100]
Trail_Mystic Offline
Dragon Breath - Darkside Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6294
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Jenny100
Is there a reason why the Darkside list doesn't have a
"Hall of Fame" like the Adventure list?
Also a maximum of only 13 games per list compared to 20?


Hey Jenny, I don't know if there was a Hall of Fame list in the past and never thought to do one. The forum participation here is rather light, a very small percentage of the overall forum population. Also, of those that do participate, the majority split their time between Adventure games and our genres. As a result, the recommendations on a "Hall of Fame" would be a little skewed and probably not change much from year to year. That said, I'd be happy to put one together. grin

The number selected (13) was done before my time, but I believe it's partially due to the aforementioned. Only a few members are dedicated Darkside players, so the number to contribute was lowered. Thirteen was selected due to it's "dark" connotation.

TM thumbsup
_________________________
"A world is supported by four things: The learning of the wise, the justice of the great, the prayers of the righteous, the valor of the brave, but all of these are as nothing without a ruler who knows the art of ruling - Make that the science of your tradition."

The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam from the novel Dune

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#1163923 - 09/23/18 08:13 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Draclvr Offline
Hints & Glitches forum Moderator
Adept Boomer

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 13634
Loc: In Missouri near St. Louis
I think a Hall of Fame would kind of defeat the purpose in this particular forum for exactly the reasons you state, Trail.
_________________________
In my PC corner for the winter, my little heater by my side, to game, read and knit.

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#1163934 - 09/23/18 09:59 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: Trail_Mystic]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 39287
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Trail_Mystic
The number selected (13) was done before my time, but I believe it's partially due to the aforementioned. Only a few members are dedicated Darkside players, so the number to contribute was lowered. Thirteen was selected due to it's "dark" connotation.

I was thinking about how many more Darkside games there are compared to the number of adventure games.

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#1164441 - 09/28/18 08:48 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
flotsam Offline
Staff Reviewer
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 4215
Loc: Long Beach NSW Australia
Hi there
I am back - lets say 48 hours then I count!!
_________________________
Quantity has a quality all of its own

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#1164442 - 09/28/18 09:06 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Marian Offline
Global Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 07/04/00
Posts: 35413
Loc: near Yosemite in California
Welcome back! I hope you enjoyed your time in Iceland. wave

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#1164444 - 09/28/18 09:49 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Trail_Mystic Offline
Dragon Breath - Darkside Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6294
Loc: Wisconsin
Hey flotsam, nice to see you made it back safely thumbsup

I just threw a posting out on the Adventure games forum to see if we could stir up any participation for those on that side of the boat that might like the occasional Darkside game. So, yeah, giving it a couple more days would be a good thing. Thanks!
_________________________
"A world is supported by four things: The learning of the wise, the justice of the great, the prayers of the righteous, the valor of the brave, but all of these are as nothing without a ruler who knows the art of ruling - Make that the science of your tradition."

The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam from the novel Dune

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#1164446 - 09/28/18 10:08 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
BrownEyedTigre Offline
The Sassy Administrator PR Liaison
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 76546
Loc: In the Naughty Corner
American McGees Alice
Beyond Divinity
Bioshock
Bioshock 2
Clive Barkers Undying
Divine Divinity
Drakan: Order of the Flame
Fable
F.E.A.R
Heretic Kingdoms: The Inquisition
Prey
Sacred Plus
Zanzarah
_________________________
Don't feed the Trolls

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#1164448 - 09/28/18 10:58 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Mikael Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 06/10/02
Posts: 634
Loc: Sweden
Alien: Isolation
Anachronox
Deus Ex
Deus Ex: Invisible War
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided
Dishonored
Dishonored 2
Police Quest: SWAT 2
Prey (2017)
Shadow Warrior
System Shock 2
Thief: The Dark Project
Thief II: The Metal Age
Thief: Deadly Shadows
Thief (2014)

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#1164483 - 09/29/18 03:10 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
CaptainD Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 08/25/12
Posts: 626
Hmm... okay, here are some I've really enjoyed:

Auralux: Constellations
Avadon: The Corruption
Beyond Good and Evil
Creavures
Dawn's Light
Gas Guzzlers Extreme
Knights of the old Republic
The Last Tinker: City of Colours
Mousecraft
Neverwinter Nights
Super Panda Adventures
Toki Tori 2+
TRON 2.0

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#1164501 - 09/30/18 06:28 AM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
aretha Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 09/16/05
Posts: 455
Loc: near London Gatwick Airport
L.A. Noire
Mass Effect
Mass Effect 2
Mass Effect 3
The Saboteur
_________________________
The great Aretha has gone but I will keep her name and her music...

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#1164502 - 09/30/18 06:59 AM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
flotsam Offline
Staff Reviewer
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 4215
Loc: Long Beach NSW Australia
12 hours or so to go!
Her is mine:

Bioshock
Dead Space 2
Divine Divinity
ES Oblivion
Fallout 4
Half Life 2
Inside
Limbo
Outcast
Portal 2
Candle
SOMA
Witcher
_________________________
Quantity has a quality all of its own

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#1164508 - 09/30/18 10:46 AM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Draclvr Offline
Hints & Glitches forum Moderator
Adept Boomer

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 13634
Loc: In Missouri near St. Louis
I'm curious about SOMA! It is unquestionable one of my favorite games and I thought of including it here, but is it a Darkside game or not!!
_________________________
In my PC corner for the winter, my little heater by my side, to game, read and knit.

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#1164514 - 09/30/18 11:07 AM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: Draclvr]
Trail_Mystic Offline
Dragon Breath - Darkside Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6294
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Draclvr
I'm curious about SOMA! It is unquestionable one of my favorite games and I thought of including it here, but is it a Darkside game or not!!


I would say yes. SOMA is classified as Survival-Horror, which is a sub-class of Action/Adventure. According to the powers that be, the first game (which is usually the definer of the genre/class) to be given the classification of Survival Horror was Resident Evil, which is most definitely a Darkside game. Other examples of that sub-class include Alien: Isolation, The Evil Within and Dead Space, all Darkside games.

TM thumbsup
_________________________
"A world is supported by four things: The learning of the wise, the justice of the great, the prayers of the righteous, the valor of the brave, but all of these are as nothing without a ruler who knows the art of ruling - Make that the science of your tradition."

The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam from the novel Dune

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#1164547 - 09/30/18 08:52 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
flotsam Offline
Staff Reviewer
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 4215
Loc: Long Beach NSW Australia
Hi all (and Draclvr especially)
I have a question before finalising the count about the following two listings

Vampire Bloodlines
Vampire The Last Masquerade

I am aware of redemption and bloodlines being Masquerade games, and am not sure if that is what is meant by these, or if it is something else. Googling didn't help me.
And Iceland is awesome!
_________________________
Quantity has a quality all of its own

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#1164555 - 09/30/18 09:28 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Marian Offline
Global Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 07/04/00
Posts: 35413
Loc: near Yosemite in California
You are correct in thinking that this is what was intended (Vampire: Bloodlines and Vampire: The Masquerade - Redemption).

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#1164558 - 09/30/18 10:17 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
flotsam Offline
Staff Reviewer
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 4215
Loc: Long Beach NSW Australia
Thanks!
_________________________
Quantity has a quality all of its own

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#1164567 - 09/30/18 11:31 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
flotsam Offline
Staff Reviewer
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 4215
Loc: Long Beach NSW Australia
Hi all
A list of placings follows.
Oldies but goodies reign.
I have applied the rules re add-ons, GOTY etc, and added some numbers to identify the production order, given some titles (eg Thief) can be confusing).
I took Prey to be the original, and Prey 2 to be the 2017 version but if I am wrong let me know and I will adjust. Ditto any other errors.
Thanks for participating, and hopefully you will find something new to play in the next 12 months
wave

1 Divine Divinity, The Witcher

2 Bioshock

3 American Magee’s Alice, Dragon Age: Origins, The Elder Scrolls 3: Morrowind, Might and Magic 6: The Mandate of Heaven, Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Zanzarah

4 Anachronox, Bioshock 2, Clive Barker’s Undying, Deus Ex, Dishonoured, Dragon Age: Inquisition, Drakan: Order of the Flame, The Elder Scrolls 5: Skyrim, Fallout: New Vegas, Fallout 4, Gothic 2: Night of the Raven, Half-Life 2, Pillars of Eternity, Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire, Quest for Glory 4: Shadows of Darkness, Return to Krondor, System Shock 2, Vampire Masquerade 2: Bloodlines

5 Alien: Isolation, Advent Rising, Anvil of Dawn, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura, Auralux: Constellations, Avadon: The Corruption, Baldur’s Gate 1, Baldur’s Gate 2, Beyond Divinity, Beyond Good and Evil, Candle, Creatures, Crysis, Darksiders: Warmastered Edition, Dawn's Light, Dead Space 2, Deus Ex 2: Invisible World, Deus Ex 6: Mankind Divided, Dishonoured 2, Divinity: Original Sin, Divinity: Original Sin 2, Dragonriders of Pern, Dungeon Keeper 2, Dungeon Siege, The Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion, Elex, Enderal, Fable, F.E.A.R., Freedom Force, Gas Guzzlers Extreme, Hero U : Rogue to Redemption, Heretic Kingdoms: The Inquisition, The Hobbit, Inside, Jade Empire, LA Noir, Lands of Lore 3, Limbo, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning, The Last Tinker: City of Colours, Mass Effect 1, Mass Effect , Mass Effect 3, Mass Effect 4: Andromeda, Metro: Last Light, Might and Magic 7: For Blood and Honour, Middle Earth Shadow of Mordor, Mirror’s Edge, Mousecraft, Neverwinter Nights, Outcast, Planescape Torment, Police Quest: Swat 2, Portal 2, Prey, Prey 2, Quest for Glory 1: So You Want to be a Hero, Risen, Sacred, Shadowrun: Hong Kong, Shadow Warrier, SOMA, Spell Force 2, Super Panda Adventures, Thief 1: The Dark Project, Thief 2: Metal Age, Thief 3: Deadly Shadows, Thief 4, Toki Tori 2+, Tomb Raider, TRON 2.0, Tyranny, Two Worlds, Vampire Masquerade 1: Redemption, The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt
_________________________
Quantity has a quality all of its own

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#1164582 - 10/01/18 05:45 AM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
CaptainD Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 08/25/12
Posts: 626
Thanks Flotsam!

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#1164607 - 10/01/18 09:39 AM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: CaptainD]
Marian Offline
Global Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 07/04/00
Posts: 35413
Loc: near Yosemite in California
Many thanks for compiling the list, flotsam. Now to find the time to play some recommendations! wave

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#1164613 - 10/01/18 10:34 AM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Draclvr Offline
Hints & Glitches forum Moderator
Adept Boomer

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 13634
Loc: In Missouri near St. Louis
Thank you, Flotsam! Same here, Marian. Now to pick out some recommendations to play!
_________________________
In my PC corner for the winter, my little heater by my side, to game, read and knit.

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#1164652 - 10/01/18 02:35 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: Draclvr]
Mad Offline
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 28778
Loc: United Kingdom
Thank you SO much, flotsam !! praise

I will look to see if I might be able to play one of the newies on the list but have to admit I LOVE seeing the oldies still doing so well laugh
_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#1164687 - 10/01/18 06:05 PM Re: this years dark list - HEY, Stop lurking and start listing! :-) [Re: flotsam]
Trail_Mystic Offline
Dragon Breath - Darkside Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 02/12/04
Posts: 6294
Loc: Wisconsin
Thank you flotsam!

TM thumbsup
_________________________
"A world is supported by four things: The learning of the wise, the justice of the great, the prayers of the righteous, the valor of the brave, but all of these are as nothing without a ruler who knows the art of ruling - Make that the science of your tradition."

The Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam from the novel Dune

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