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Underdogs site legal? #117497
10/24/03 05:50 PM
10/24/03 05:50 PM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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I know this has probably been asked before but, I couldn't find anything with the search function. I was wondering if the Underdogs site is legal or not. Also, if it is illegal, would posting a link to it also be illegal? Isn't this the same thing as downloading MP3 files for free? Gatorlaw? Anyone?
Thanks,
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117498
10/24/03 06:23 PM
10/24/03 06:23 PM
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Jenny100 Offline
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The owner of the Underdogs site takes special care not to include downloads for games that are still available or are forbidden by the IDSA. You may notice that instead of download links, many gamepages link to a shop where you can buy (or were once able to buy) the game. There's a reason why Underdogs is still around while many abandonware sites have vanished.

I've posted links to Underdogs, but for their game reviews of obscure games rather than for their downloads. And I don't remember whether I posted at GB or not.

You can check the Underdogs FAQ here , which may answer some of your questions about legality.

Personally, I have no problem with anyone downloading something from Underdogs. But then I have no problem with downloading mp3's of music that is no longer available either.

Someone else will have to tell you the official Gameboomers policy on Underdogs links.

Re: Underdogs site legal? #117499
10/24/03 06:53 PM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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Thanks for the info Jenny100. You answered many of my questions about the Underdogs site.

Can someone else tell what the Gameboomers policy is on posting links to the Underdogs site?
Thanks,
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117500
10/24/03 09:15 PM
10/24/03 09:15 PM
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IMHO NOT being allowed to ever mention them would be a disservice to those looking for games, seriously.

They do a great job not only of listing old and free games but reviewing them in detail. You may not agree with the reviewer but they will always help you decide if the game in question is your cup of tea

for ex: I was checking the review for Out of Order, a freeware game when I saw this thread. Take a look

http://www.the-underdogs.info/

I think it likely I will give it a try laugh



HOTU isnt focused on abandonware as much as helping people find good old &/or underpromoted games. They tell you about them, tell you where you might be able to track them down, and give reviews on lesser known commercial AND Indie AND freeware games.

HOTU is very conscientious about what they do.

Gameboomer has great reviews but these are mostly for more recent games. If I want to know if an ancient game at the thrift store is any good. I check these guys first.

Course, I understand if you hold a different opinion.

Last edited by looney4labs; 06/25/07 06:21 PM. Reason: update link, remove broken link
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117501
10/24/03 09:17 PM
10/24/03 09:17 PM
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gatorlaw Offline
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I don't consider the underdogs site illegal. There have been posts - but the search engine is finicky - so it might not have gone through.

They have manuals for old games and all sorts of resources. I value their work very much. Other than the amazing amount of pop-ups they have to sustain to keep their site paid for - I love the place.





Re: Underdogs site legal? #117502
10/24/03 09:28 PM
10/24/03 09:28 PM
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We've had these discussions in the past, but not recently I think.

People have made good arguements on both sides of the issue (game fans who would PAY for games if they were available vs. the rights holders of artistic creations).

Ultimately I think that there's enough ambiguity there (moral, legal and otherwise) that its probably best not to post links to Underdog downloads. As Jenny 100 pointed out, it is a great reference site though.

You know, I think its kind of like speeding. You probably aren't hurting anyone by doing it on an empty freeway at 3AM, but I'm not sure you want to discuss it publicly at great length afterwards.

And Rusty, in anticipation of this week's nosy question, I'm currently shelling peanuts, and listening to The Doves.

Re: Underdogs site legal? #117503
10/24/03 09:39 PM
10/24/03 09:39 PM
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Well, if it bugs your conscience you shouldnt go there, recommend it etc. If I felt the same way you do about it, I wouldnt either.

But I dont happen to agree with you. Except about agreeing with Jenny100. <img border="0" alt="woozy" title="" src="graemlins/woozy.gif" />

PS: I'm good about obeying posted speed limits regardless of the hour, location, company or lack therof <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

Re: Underdogs site legal? #117504
10/24/03 09:46 PM
10/24/03 09:46 PM
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gatorlaw Offline
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To be fair - we have had this discussion and we do have a strong board policy about warez and such. I know - because I wrote our guidelines.

Underdogs is also a site that has taken extreme steps to contact potential license holders, but I certainly agree it is a tricky area where their site is concerned.

We have linked to the site for resource purposes. And I stand by their many site featiures in this area.





Re: Underdogs site legal? #117505
10/24/03 09:48 PM
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Salar, I think you misunderstood my post. I've download games from The Underdogs, and I certainly speed all the time, and don't have a problem with either.

All I'm saying is that judging by the reaction of others on GameBoomers during previous discussions, it may be prudent not to link directly to HOTU downloads.

BTW, I wasn't directly addressing your arguement - I didn't even see your post since I neglected to refresh. Silly me!

Re: Underdogs site legal? #117506
10/24/03 10:17 PM
10/24/03 10:17 PM
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okey doke. Glad to hear it smile

I felt obliged to elaborate on my own viewpoint, given that I'm the one who recommended HOTU as one place to look up old classic games.

And they *ARE* special. I havent found any other place with a "Belated Hall of Fame" or year by year listings of games released since the late 80's (& they rate each on a scale of 1-10). Extremely handy folks, IMO!

I dont think anyone has posted a link to an abandonware download though. Just reviews & lists. The free game download links in the other thread were direct releases by the DEVELOPERS..the guys who made it..the ones who hold the artistic rights if anyone does.

And the one above is a freebie. Actually their link takes you to the developers site where you can get it directly.

Still...its good to know policies. yep yep

Looks like it offends Fried Monkey, which is reason enough not to mention them again. But at least he'll know now in detail why I bothered at all.

Him likes those nosy details <img border="0" alt="woozy" title="" src="graemlins/woozy.gif" />

*snags another banana*

Susan smile

Re: Underdogs site legal? #117507
10/24/03 10:44 PM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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How on earth did you get the feeling that I am offended by Underdogs talk? I didn't think I did anything except ask some questions...
For the record, I am not offended in the least by this. I am all for being able to download games, and music as well, as long as they are no longer available to purchase. laugh
I just wanted to know more about Underdogs and how Gameboomers view it, that's all. Please don't misunderstand my post (or you will never get a banana from me!) laugh
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117508
10/25/03 12:00 AM
10/25/03 12:00 AM
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*coaxing voice* aawwww... Cant I have just one banana? You'd have 18 left *remembers the previous snack* umm.. well 17.... lol

Tell ya what. I will bring you a big platter of banana nut cookies to the Halloween party <img border="0" alt="woozy" title="" src="graemlins/woozy.gif" />

Susan laugh

Re: Underdogs site legal? #117509
10/25/03 08:13 AM
10/25/03 08:13 AM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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lol Mmmmmm...banana nut cookies...
Rusty smile


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117510
10/25/03 10:15 AM
10/25/03 10:15 AM
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EDIT

I changed my mind - so instead of what I wrote, I write think instead.


Derman
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117511
10/25/03 10:53 AM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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Aw c'mon Derman! Now we are all going to wonder what it was you were going to say.
Rusty smile


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117512
10/25/03 10:55 AM
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Never shall it be revealed, lest it be deemed necessary by the gods of High places.

think


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Re: Underdogs site legal? #117513
10/25/03 10:59 AM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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Was it really that bad? think
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117514
10/25/03 11:04 AM
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Rusty....

evil nah it wasn't bad - I'm just messing around - been watching too many crazy sitcoms - this is what happens when you acquire an entire series of something and watch it non-stop for days.

I was just posting about your comment "everyone should be able to download whatever they want", but then I realised this could spark a whole new debate and I just changed my mind about wanting to get into it all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />


Derman
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117515
10/25/03 11:08 AM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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Okay laugh I actually should have rephrased that comment anyway. I only believe what I said to a point, as being able to download anything one wanted would certainly create utter chaos! laugh
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117516
10/25/03 11:15 AM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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I am still not clear on one thing regarding The Underdogs site. From what I understand, the site is legal. However, the site offers links to abandonware, which is illegal. I just don't get it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="confused.gif" />
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117517
10/25/03 11:16 AM
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Exactly!

Chaos is not good, most of the time.

Anyway, back to the sitcoms - maybe I should save the last few seasons for another time. evil


Derman
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117518
10/25/03 11:24 AM
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Well, I think the theory behind it is that the companies involved "probably" won't mind people downloading the stuff because they will never sell it again (it's abandoned), and it keeps the spirit alive - but then again, the companies themselves could just release it as freeware, or state categorically that it is OK to download it....

As I see it - it is ILLEGAL to post anything for download if you don't have permission, but they would argue, well, "Who's going to mind about an old game that nobody can get anymore?".

A good comparison is Fan-Fiction - from what I understand, this is illegal as you are publishing works derived from other copyrighted works, but most people are not too bothered because it means they have loyal fans and it keeps the fans involved in, and talking about, the original work.


Derman
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117519
10/25/03 11:29 AM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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Hmmm...Seems like a very gray area. Thanks Derman for helping me understand this confusingness (yes, I made up that word). laugh
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117520
10/25/03 11:56 AM
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No problem Rusty - did you read the FAQ's on the Underdogs site? They do a pretty good job of explaining the whole thing.

Another thought is this - if a games company releases a game as freeware and says, yes ALL can download it, I'm not sure whether later on, said company would be able to take it back, and say, no, now you can't download it, because we want to sell it again - if it was already freeware there would be little point in them selling it....

.....so, some companies will tolerate Underdogs because of the reasons I have mentioned but won't officially endorse it or officially release their games as freeware because in the future they may wish to resell them or license them, or whatever, so there really is no point in saying, yes you can download it - does this make sense? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

So, what they are doing is just not publicly talking about the whole issue and kind of ignoring it, until such a time as they see fit to vote one or the other on the future of their copyrighted works .i.e. to release or not to release (as freeware), that is the question - if their game is on Underdogs, it can be removed if they want it to be, either by Underdogs or by force if need be, but if the company is not really bothered about people downloading it, why bother granting permission? Underdogs are going to post the download anyway, so the companies might as well just not say anything about it, until they feel they might HAVE to.

It should also be noted that just because something is freeware, doesn't mean you are able to do whatever you like with it - there will still be a license agreement - sure, you can get it for free, but you probably can't upload it to your own website for people to download - the people who are allowed to host it would be determined by the copyright holders - FREEWARE should not be confused with PUBLIC DOMAIN - those are my feelings anyway.


Derman
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117521
10/25/03 12:11 PM
10/25/03 12:11 PM
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One of the gods of High Places speaking here laugh

Our official policy has always been since Underdogs has games for download that are still copyrighted, it makes them an abandonware site and we have a rule against posting links to abandonware sites.

I have however, let links to one of their reviews stand, so in other words - we would rather you didn't post links to them, but you won't be drawn and quartered if you do laugh


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Light Side:

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Re: Underdogs site legal? #117522
10/25/03 12:27 PM
10/25/03 12:27 PM
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Thanks! That explains a good deal, Derman. Seemed to me HOTU was being good about not releasing things companies might care about but I was still a bit confused I guess.

And now the word has come down from on high and we have our answer re: Gameboomers too.

okay, back to that rabbit puzzle in Final Scene...

Susan laugh

Re: Underdogs site legal? #117523
10/25/03 01:42 PM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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Thanks Syd, for helping to clear up my confused brain... laugh
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Underdogs site legal? #117524
10/25/03 01:46 PM
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Well, I thought I had everything figured out, but there has been so much discussion about Underdogs and if you can or can't download, I thought I might as well put my two cents in. I did go to their web site and clicked on a game that sounded like it might be fun to play. I didn't find any where the word "download." I'm assuming this is one that can be purchased. If there is a game that has the word download, can I believe the company who made the game has given Underdogs permission to have people download the game? I try and buy my games from discount places and games that have been used (not necessarily on a website), but when I really want to play an adventure game and I don't have the funds, it's nice to be able to download free games. Soooooo, if it says "download" can I be safe to download the game on Underdogs? By the way, what does HOTU stand for?

Butterfly

Re: Underdogs site legal? #117525
10/25/03 02:10 PM
10/25/03 02:10 PM
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HOTU=Home of the Underdogs

I have never downloaded anything from this site but use it as a valuable reference. Several years ago, the owner requested that links not be posted on newsgroups--probably too much attention.

Re: Underdogs site legal? #117526
10/25/03 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Thanks Syd, for helping to clear up my confused brain...
Syds says to tell you
Quote:
your brain will stay fogged as long as you keep smoking bananas laugh





Re: Underdogs site legal? #117527
10/25/03 04:03 PM
10/25/03 04:03 PM
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friedmonky Offline OP
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lol lol lol Anyone have a light?
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
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