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#119178 - 01/24/03 02:20 PM Re: Schizm
Witchen Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 22381
Loc: Seattle Washington USA
Hi Sharon.........Yuppers, the facetiousness didn't quite come across I guess....LOL lol !


"...how sad is that!"

Not sad at all! This is one tough game and it doesn't get easy toward the end. wink

Love, Witchen =O)

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#119179 - 01/24/03 02:40 PM Re: Schizm
Rckasea Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 08/11/00
Posts: 2565
Loc: Colden,N.Y.
Schzim,Schzim,Schzim;
Wow, what a love/hate game huh!
I have not yet got the game to install on full 3.3GB, 5 CD-ROM version. While waiting for a response from Dreamcatchers on that, I did the
only other option, install at 220MB and play off my CD-ROM drive. The colors and such are great.
Guess what happens when you switch between the two main characters? DING! DING! DING! You also swap back and forth between Disk #1 and #2. I would venture to say this must be the though out the rest of the game. I have only just started and have yet to solve my first puzzle. I did see a ghost, I think. Reading the posts here, I do not think anyone would want to add this extra hassle to playing this game. It is to be shelved for now. If anyone ever played this game on min. installation, I would love to know.
_________________________
" If you decide not to chose, You still have made a choice"....Getty Lee

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#119180 - 01/24/03 03:39 PM Re: Schizm
Maciek Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 115
Loc: Rzeszow, Poland
Okay, it’s Friday evening, I’m still at work, but I can waste some time with the forum instead of working in Schizm 2. So let’s discuss the original Schizm’s puzzles. Again.

I don’t remember the puzzles too well, therefore I went to the excellent Universal Hint System, to check hints for Schizm and build a list of puzzles. I just want to check how many of them involve math. Is Schizm indeed a math-only game?


Possible spoilers below!





1. Oil dispenser – hardly a puzzle, bring what’s necessary and receive an item. No math.
2. Tulip shaped objects – crank some dials and find the required sequence. This puzzle often is solved by accident – poor design indeed. No math.
3. Spike-like objects – again, use the lantern, observe results and make all spikes extend. No math.
4. Living ship navigation console – find some symbols and use them. No math at this point, later the navigational coordinates will require some serious *adding* and *subtracting*.
5. Peal dispenser – quite easy, notice some symbols and enter them in required sequence (two tries at most). No math.
6. Gas distributor – very hard puzzle. Require adding, but this hardly can be considered as math. At most you have to count to 55 (with fingers, matches, toothpicks or anything similar if counting in memory is “too mathematical”) but usually counting to 6 and a lucky guess are enough, but you have to figure out how the solution works. I admit that this puzzle should be later in the game, but with pre-rendered games it’s difficult to move puzzle if it happens to be too difficult. It requires several months of re-rendering. Okay, some very basic math – counting – probably pre-school level.
7. Reading disc – very easy puzzle. No math.
8. Entering coordinates in air ship – no math at all, very easy.
9. Prayer grinders – yes, the sound puzzle. Doesn’t require musical ear though, just remembering hard to understand words in alien language. I intentionally made those sounds harder to understand, this was a kind of partially obstructed written message, but delivered orally. The rest of the puzzle – shapes, colors and sounds – is not difficult. No math.
10. Air ship lock – always close doors behind. No math.
11. Hermat’s Pillars – yes, this is the infamous trigonometry puzzle. Quite complicated – measure pillars, take many readings and ask for help your fellow roommates, friends, co-workers, family members etc. - we need to solve a very simple trigonometric equation. Yes, this is the only mathematical puzzle in the game – I do not consider adding and subtracting to be a math.
12. Black statue – bring an item and use on it. No math.
13. Matia’s Zone naval coordinates – okay, some math – adding and subtracting in 12 based numbering system. A “trick” with borrow confused many, who operated on each digits individually and not as a whole number. Some math.
14. Prison water – easy, if you figure out that both protagonists are needed. No math.
15. Drawbridge – two wheels to turn and observed results. No math.
16. Village of Matiani – enter twice, exit once. Although it requires counting up to two, it is not a math puzzle.
17. Dam door – collect two cards, use settings from one to decode the other. No math.
18. The railway bridges – this one proved to be very difficult puzzle for many. It is strange because we tested it mostly with non-adventure players (including me), who managed to beat the machine very quickly, especially knowing the winning method – defending (UHS suggest offense, but I think that defense works much better in second set of plays). We thought that the puzzle was way too easy after initial tests, and added the requirement of winning twice in a row. BTW save in the middle doesn’t make sense – it would be better to require only one win. It is a difficult puzzle (show stopper for many, unfortunately), but no math.
19. Train – hardly a puzzle. Learn symbols and destinations. No math.
20. Telescope – no math, although the knowledge of binary search algorithm helps in solving the puzzle.
21. Lights sequence – very easy puzzle. Remember the sequence of light flashes and use it. No math.
22. Mechanical computer – yes, the ability to access it early in the game disorientated many players. They tried to fiddle with the machine, which is required at the very late stages. But the puzzle is easy, although sometimes requires long trips back to the areas of the game already visited. Gather different clues from the entire game and use it on the machine. The result is used then to opening the Matia’s hideout (the egg). No math.
23. The final puzzle – bring everything to the Matia’s Zone – the living ship, the airship and both protagonists. Move Matia to the living ship. No math.
24. The ending – bring both protagonists to the living ship and fly to the stars. No math.

Hmm, to me, there are plenty of non-mathematical puzzles in Schizm. Frankly speaking, the majority of them don’t involve even counting. Yes, I know, some of the puzzles are difficult, probably too difficult, but not because of math.
_________________________
Maciej Miasik
www.detalion.com

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#119181 - 01/24/03 04:57 PM Re: Schizm
Witchen Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 22381
Loc: Seattle Washington USA
Hi there Maciek..........Thanks so very much for taking the time to elaborate and explain the variety of puzzles in Schizm. Much appreciated!

As for my personal opinion, though, I'd just as soon you were working on Schizm II! lol lol I can't wait!

Love, Witchen =O)

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#119182 - 01/24/03 08:31 PM Re: Schizm
gatorlaw Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 11/01/99
Posts: 10308
I shied away from playing Schizm for a while - cause I thought it sounded too math based. But I got the DVD version (no CD swapping) and was immediately wowed by the graphics.

The railroad trestle puzzle didn;t seem too bad to me at all - but then I tend to play these things defensively anyway and just fiddle with them. I got stuck a bit with the gas collector problem - but hey I figure that's what WT's/hints are for wink Amzing cut scenes and great ending.

Count me a definte yes for any sequal to this impressive game smile

Laura
_________________________




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#119183 - 01/24/03 11:28 PM Re: Schizm
BaldBob Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 02/12/00
Posts: 162
Loc: California
I truly loath having to slam a true Adventure game.

But Schizm is a true stinker (just like Obsidian, which some mazzo in here recommended to play.... TWICE!)

Here's the deal with the puzzles (and I stated this before, and one of the developers "corrected" me): They developed the puzzles FIRST. Thought it was clever. Then put it in the game without looking at the game progession, and seeing that it was indecipherable when you didn't develop the thing from the beginning, and were playing from the beginning.

Will I buy Schizm Deux? Maybe... but let's be more aware that Trigonometry is only fun if there's a solution that doesn't involve a Cray computer.

(Note: you didn't "beat" us when you made the rules incomprehensible.)

And Obdsidian still is the worst...No Redemption.

Bob

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#119184 - 01/25/03 03:22 AM Re: Schizm
Advpuzlov Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 06/05/99
Posts: 2027
Loc: USA
Quoting MACIEK
Quote:
9. Prayer grinders &#8211; yes, the sound puzzle. Doesn't require musical ear though, just remembering hard to understand words in alien language.
The prayer grinders were not what bothered me. It was the very low pitch, hardly understandable Priest mumblings that caused me pain. If I can hear a sound I can duplicate it and recognize it when it comes up again, but that's if I can actually hear it. If you recheck my earlier reply you will note that SCHIZM stands at 2/50 in my list of favorite games, so that irritation did not turn me off the game. The 2nd bridge-raising computer game was, in my mind, the toughest, but I found that if I cut off my opponent, I could get through. Since I saved before that game, I have played it several times since that time and, as before, enjoyed it. In fact, even more so as I got better and better at beating my computer opponent. laugh

Let me stress that the puzzles were in many respects the strong point of SCHIZM and I would be disappointed if you would "water down" SCHIZM II. I also very much liked to be able to work from the point of view of two characters and I thought it particularly interesting the one time that they had to work together to solve a puzzle. You might think of incorporating more of these "required cooperation" puzzles in SCHIZM II. SCHIZM was a fairly long game, which I like. I'd rather have a "novel" than a "short story" in an Adventure/Puzzle game.

I'm very much looking forward to SCHIZM II (I assume that it will be "point and click" and not keyboard), but please don't let any of your characters "mumble in a very low pitch."
_________________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle

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#119185 - 01/25/03 05:16 AM Re: Schizm
Betje Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 334
Loc: the Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Maciek:

Hmm, to me, there are plenty of non-mathematical puzzles in Schizm. Frankly speaking, the majority of them don't involve even counting. Yes, I know, some of the puzzles are difficult, probably too difficult, but not because of math. [/QB]
Define math.

For instance, figuring out the solution to the gas distributor does require a mathematical way of thinking.

Betje
_________________________
The beaded curtain slams shut behind you. There's no turning back now...

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#119186 - 01/25/03 06:48 AM Re: Schizm
colpet Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 1803
Loc: Orillia, Ontario, Canada
I'm with Advpuzlov on this one. I have the DVD Schizm, which probably made gameplay smoother.
Sure, the puzzles were hard, but they were logical (for me). I did a save just before the priest mumbles the sequence, and I was able to listen to it over and over again to discern the phonetics. I will be looking forward to a 'point and click' Schizm II.
BTW, I really enjoyed Obsidian and will likely play it again. Could someone please define the term 'mazzo' for me? :-)

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#119187 - 01/25/03 10:13 AM Re: Schizm
Maciek Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 115
Loc: Rzeszow, Poland
Quote:
Here's the deal with the puzzles (and I stated this before, and one of the developers "corrected" me): They developed the puzzles FIRST. Thought it was clever. Then put it in the game without looking at the game progession, and seeing that it was indecipherable when you didn't develop the thing from the beginning, and were playing from the beginning.
I don't know who developed the game that way, but this weren't us. The initial story was first, then the puzzles, then the rest of story, then the rest of over 2 years of development. Unfortunately, we can't always properly judge the puzzle on paper - sometimes it needs to be tested in real life (e.g. in the game) to show all its drawbacks or advantages. Also, usually the game is developed in different order than is played, therefore it's too late to change it significantly at late stages which means that sometimes we end up with less then perfect puzzles (too hard for example) at the beginning of the gameplay. And in case of pre-rendered game, the time between the puzzle design and its implementation is very long, over a year sometimes and any change requires several months of work. If there's time for that, we change, if there isn't we have to accept puzzle as it is, or remove it altogether.

Quote:
Maybe... but let's be more aware that Trigonometry is only fun if there's a solution that doesn't involve a Cray computer.
Okay, I checked the puzzle again, and this is geometry puzzle (not trigonometry) and requires the knowledge of Tales theorem (in one of its easiest form), something which we learn here in an elementary school. Definitely Cray machine isn't required for solving it but the paper and pencil is enough (that is only 4 numbers involved for each tower, from each 2 are constant for all of them). The puzzle show the required solution in a form of fresco on the wall, therefore it isn't even necessary to know that this is Tales at all (I had to run a google search to check it).

Quote:
If I can hear a sound I can duplicate it and recognize it when it comes up again, but that's if I can actually hear it.
I've already admitted that I did it intentionally. I thought that this puzzle would be way too easy if we could clearly hear the words. The priest doesn't mumble, his speech is clear, but he is at some distance in very reverberant room - which distorts his message. I think this is very fair obstacle, making the puzzle harder.

Quote:
I would be disappointed if you would "water down" SCHISMS II
I believe we have some quite challenging puzzles ready for Schizm 2, but we've learned the lesson and would try to avoid "show stoppers". The game is going to be linear this time, for sake of better story development. Also, non-linearity of Schizm confused many people, we want them to solve puzzles not cope with their confusion.

Quote:
For instance, figuring out the solution to the gas distributor does require a mathematical way of thinking.
I think this very logical puzzle where math (counting) plays only supporting role. Even if we consider this puzzle to be a math one, there's still non-math puzzles left.

Quote:
I'm very much looking forward to SCHIZM II (I assume that it will be "point and click" and not keyboard)
Schizm 2 will be the first person perspective game, controlled with the mouse (or mouse and keyboard for those who play other FPP games, like FPP shooters). I don't know if it satisfies you...
_________________________
Maciej Miasik
www.detalion.com

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#119188 - 01/25/03 11:40 AM Re: Schizm
Namma Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 11/09/00
Posts: 1793
Loc: The Middle of the Sonoran Dese...
I'm eagerly anticipating Schizm II.

Other than trying to decipher the sounds from the prayer grinders (which I needed help for) I loved every puzzle in Schizm. I especially liked playing as two people. Seemed logical to me that sometimes I could do things on my own and that at other times I would need help from my partner.

Back to work Maciek! Some of us are hungry!

Hugs, Cheryl
(Another Obsidian Fan)
_________________________
Life is not measured by the breaths you take,
it is measured by the moments that take your
breath away.

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#119189 - 01/25/03 12:04 PM Re: Schizm
colpet Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 1803
Loc: Orillia, Ontario, Canada
Quote:
"Schizm 2 will be the first person perspective game, controlled with the mouse (or mouse and keyboard for those who play other FPP games, like FPP shooters). I don't know if it satisfies you..."

Yay bravo

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#119190 - 01/25/03 12:20 PM Re: Schizm
Betje Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 334
Loc: the Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by Maciek:
Quote:
Okay, I checked the puzzle again, and this is geometry puzzle (not trigonometry) and requires the knowledge of Tales theorem (in one of its easiest form), something which we learn here in an elementary school.


[QUOTE]For instance, figuring out the solution to the gas distributor does require a mathematical way of thinking.
I think this very logical puzzle where math (counting) plays only supporting role. Even if we consider this puzzle to be a math one, there's still non-math puzzles left.
In elementary school? Really? I'm flabbergasted!
(Flabbergasted is one of my favourite English words, it has such a nice jabberwockyish feeling to it. laugh )

To me, counting is just arithmetics. I agree that the counting is no problem, once you've figured out the (mathematical) solution. Maybe the real problem is that we're both non-natives who are trying to communicate in English...

Betje
_________________________
The beaded curtain slams shut behind you. There's no turning back now...

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#119191 - 01/26/03 12:12 PM Re: Schizm
Homer6 Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 5490
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Add me to the list of people who started Schizm and so far, haven't finished. The very first problem I encountered was the game hanging at the wrong moments; even a replacement disk didn't solve the problem. Some puzzles I did figure out, others I've yet to encounter. When my mind set improves, I may return and try to finish Schizm. Right after I finish Chemicus, that is...
_________________________
If something gets your goat, it just proves you have a goat to get.

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#119192 - 01/26/03 08:18 PM Re: Schizm
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35281
Loc: southeast USA
Is Schizm 2 going to have a different name? I remember reading something about the name getting changed because Schizm was a dirty word in some language or other.

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