I pretty much agree with everything I saw here. I know that because I am a part of a community that welcomes all gamers has given me a bug to try RPG games(got to be turn based since I have no quick reflexes and I'm 30)

Shorah

I began my gaming life as a teen with the Zork series, but back then pc "action" titles were laughable so I cant claim any real temptation. Alternatives ate my few extra quarters too quickly

Since then I've played quite a few platformers, puzzlers, rpgs, and a few action-adventure games (mostly Zelda). I dont like or dislike games because they are of a particular genre, I like them when they are well-made, clean,intelligent fun. (even 2 outta 3 aint bad) Adventure games currently give me more of that than most other options. I like a good story. When its also "purty" & has good puzzles, life is very, very good

I agree that the rpg-ers are, by & large, less hostile to the adventure game crowd. A number of them arent averse to at least trying an adventure game. After all, a good RPG requires patience, memory skills, and some strategy. More occasionally you get a lengthy and/or complex story to go with it all (Final Fantasy 3 & Chronotrigger come to mind)

I dont think the hostility that some action/fps boards sport is entirely a youth or male thing (though that often affects the form of expression) Young women in these online worlds adopt the same manners & mannerisms to fit in...which is telling. The games in question encourage aggressiveness & soldier-like attitudes ("us" vs "them") which carries over into forums.

(Adventure gaming must be as totally "them" as you can get!)

& Some of the noise is actually defensive (we may feel dumb next to you puzzlers but we're tough!)

A number of game mags & mods reinforce the stupidity, making it "socially acceptable" to be rude to and about gentler forms of entertainment

Not all action gamers ARE hostile though. Some who have the reflexes see things like Quake, Halo, Wolfeinstein et al as a good place to blow off some steam & relax. Kinda like solitaire with a machine gun. They dont take it seriously. Some of them enjoy adventure games, rpgs, even 1000+ page novels. I dont want to over--generalize. Myst, Civilization, & Doom may not seem like compatible interests but my husband enjoyed them all. He's never flamed anyone.

There are and there have always been, plenty of young men & women who enjoy games like Myst, Mario Sunshine, Tetris, Pandora's Box, & Riddle of the Sphinx.

As housewife pointed out, many havent tried adventure gaming. Until they do, they dont understand the attractions. They don't know they are "smart enough"

IMO, that discovery makes a big difference

hope you dont mind my rattling on,

Salar

Im currently playing/replaying (in pieces as time & interest beckon) : Mario Sunshine & Zelda:Ocarina on the Gamecube, Schizm & Mystery of the Nautilus on pc (I like the game, I love Jules Verne, but I hate that robot gggrrrrr), & Chronotrigger on ps1

and Im reading 3 books (not simultaneously)

but I will set aside all I havent finished when Omega Stone gets here

Hi "Fellow Boomers"!! I just want to say...this is the best place to be if you are looking for a "hint, gentle push..or a great big shove" In an Adventure, RPG, Action..or whatever! I think it is great that there are different types of games..and even greater that there are different types of "people" who play them!! {good thing we don't all like the same things..:-)}I play more Adventure games than anything else..but I also play Action/RPG's too.. Keep Smiling! :-) Glynn

Boomers is a great place thanks to the subtle moderation.

There are people out there whose idea of a good time is being rude. One of the long established Adventure newsgroups had more than its share of pretentious putdowns. Each to their own - I'll stick with sites like Boomers.

I used to think that action gamers hated adventure gamers, until one guy angrily told me "you adventure game players always look down at us action gamers", which certainly struck a cord. Somehwere along the line, adventure became the smart people's choice and action the dumb kid's preferred choice. EXTREME generalization, of course. I'm thinking that this somehow has become a vicious circle, that if adventure is mentioned in action gatherings, they feel an imminent snob attack coming, and vice versa.

Of course, there will always be a certain amount of insensitive morons on any place, much less here of course, but sometimes it's worth to think about why on earth this "competition" between the genres exist. Why can't everybody just get along... <img border="0" alt="[winky]" title="" src="graemlins/winky.gif" />

Let's face it, Witchen, why be modest? We are the intellectual elite of the gaming world. The creme de la creme, the top 6%, the aristocracy of those who have waaay too much time on their hands (or who get waaay too little sleep). Boomers, you know who you are. We have lived long and prospered (maybe) and now are reaping our rewards (before we go to our reward). Now, Witchen, given the breadth of games you play, I'd say you have waaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands as well as a hell of a retirement package to be able to afford all that gaming goodness. All that playing plus writing WTs and being Miss Manners on the Discussion Board. I am truly impressed.

Also, I would like to congratulate you on achieving the ultimate to which we all aspire - a discussion thread named just for you.
I'm not worthy!!

I love adventure games, but I don't think that makes me or anyone here smarter or better than the people who prefer other game genres. It just means that I and other people on this board love adventure games. Demographics wise, adventure gamers do seem to be older, but that's just a fact, it's neither good nor bad. There are plenty of things many middle aged people like to do(and I'm one of them, middle aged that is) that I don't like at all, and vice versa. Gee, hope that didn't come out mean, it wasn't meant to be. It's just a thing I have, people saying that people who play adventure games are somehow smarter and better than other gamers, or other people in general. I don't like that. What I do like is how people here can share a common interest, on this board. That's very appealing to me, also the fact that this is a kind board. I like that.

I agree with the comments on RPG boards. On the few that I've seen, there is very little flaming.

On other boards and "meanness". Younger boards tend to attract flaming. Sometimes along with the flaming, you get a very lively, energetic board, which is nice. I try to never flame, but I must admit, there have been times when I've lost it. It's so easy to do, on a board. All kinds of boards can become mean and factionalized, boards on obscure academic topics, boards on, well, anything. It's the moderation that makes the difference. On another board I post at, I've told people that "all boards are moderated". If the people running the boards don't moderate them, your most assertive posters will do the moderation for you. Sometimes that isn't what you want.

"I'd say you have waaaaaaaaay too much time on your hands as well as a hell of a retirement package to be able to afford all that gaming goodness."

hahahahaha , Howard! You're right on one thing there and soooooo wrong on the other, and I'm sure someone will happily oblige you with a thread all to your ownship one of these days.....FOTFL

Hi there mszv.....It could be that adventure gamers tend to be older....not sure though, because many, many of the games kids play before they reach their teenage years, could likely be called "adventures." Certainly you'd include the Nancy Drew series. I'm thinking about "Oregon Trail," for example, and those that might be considered edutainment too, as opposed to pure educational games.

Love, Witchen =O)

Very good points Witchen, on possible adventure game demographics! We've got young(ish) and middle-aged and older, now we need to rope in more other ages! I don't want adventure game snobbery, but I want more people playing adventure games!

"I don't want adventure game snobbery, but I want more people playing adventure games!"

Boy, you got that right mszv, and I want more adventure games to play! LOL

I think people join boards for different reasons. Here at Gameboomers we like to share, receive and give help and discuss adventure games. I don't think that many of us would enjoy arguing or being mean or sarcastic in a cruel way with each other. On some boards, however, there is something like road rage where anyone who asks a question, doesn't know as much as the more knowledgeable members or doesn't agree with the majority gets flamed. I think it is because the person on the other end can't be seen (as others have stated on this thread). I don't think this necessarily has anything to do with the topic of the board, whether it is a type of game, music or animal that is loved or discussed; it just has to do with the maturity of the posters and whether or not the board meets their needs. If a person flames in another board, they might be congratulated; however, here at GB it wouldn't be tolerated, so that need wouldn't be met here. When you are at a board that tolerates or rewards that type of behavior, you may have the objective of discussing a matter in a civilized way or informing others of a different point of view, but it will not be accepted or even tolerated because they enjoy being hostile to you and are rewarded for it. Frequenting that sort of board can also set you up for horrid e-mails, viruses and e-bomb things that freeze you computer (I learned the hard way), so I find it is best to hang around a while and get the feel of a board before I post. If I see the board seems hostile, I tend not to try to educate the ignorant, and instead leave them to each other.

I agree with those who have said that "flaming" on any forum has more to do with the personality and tolerance of the forum for opposing views rather than age or interest. For example, I have been attacked on a cruise board forum for stating an honest opinion. The cruise line defenders buried me rather quickly and these were mostly a well over age thirty group. It's happened on other non-game forums as well.
So it's not really adventure gamers these other non-adventure game forums hate. It's really only anyone who has a different opinion about what they like. There are a few rare forums around, like this one, which manage to hold it together by good moderators and a mix of members who understand and accept differences. That's why they last.

WOW...what an incredibly great bunch of responses to my "woe is me" cry! I think everything that was said was SO worthwhile! I just LOVE it here!

Part of my problem with other boards is that the younger part of ME still feels a need to defend everyone's right to love their favorite genre...REGARDLESS of what that might be! MINE just happens to be adventures. But as I've stated before....I play a little bit of EVERYthing, so I don't think I talk down to "non-adventurers." I do try to encourage them to recognize that adventure gamers do exist, however. And to that...they often respond with a "who cares" type attitude. That hurts my feelings, but....such is life, I suppose.

I guess that young part of me needs to grow up and realize....there's no need to defend myself, my choices, or my friends. I'm an adult now, and don't have to do that! I just love adventures and all of you SO much that it irks me to no end when we get bashed!!! And that's when I usually try to kindly but firmly respond to such bashing...and it goes on and on then, ad infinitum! There's just no openmindedness in some people, regardless of whether they are young or old.

C'est la vie!

Finally, I must say...I'm VERY lucky to have a board like THIS one where we are all free to be ourselves and just enjoy gaming and each other.

Hugs and kisses,
<img border="0" alt="[kiss]" title="" src="graemlins/kiss.gif" />

Lori
"girlgeek"

Inferno - Just wanted to say that I loved your post. What a valuable lesson you taught your sons. And how special they must be to have actually learned it.

Well, girlgeek, you are so quick, clever and engaging, I can't image why those other game forums wouldn't be eager to read your comments. you aren't a grumpy "geezer in training" like me!

I do think that sometimes adventure games are thought of as either games for the very young, or "geezer" kind of games - they aren't hip, smart, clever, quick, edgy kinds of games. You know, in the middle of snow country, the adventure gamers would be cross country skiing, or perhaps downhill skiing, while the "edgier" folks would be snowboarding, that sort of thing. On the streets the adventure gamers would be walking (quickly, with a map), the action gamers would would be skateboarding, the rpgers would be role playing like they were movie stars and getting into nightclubs, the strategy people would be, well, the analogy escapes me. There also aren't a lot of adrenaline rushes in most adventure games. There aren't adrenaline rushes in other types of game genres either (strategy), but adventure games seem to be singled out. And finally, when people say that adventure games are smarter, more sophisticated, more intellectual, that sort of thing, well that's going to really irritate other gamers, particularly young ones. It's like there are the "good games" and the "bad games". I've seen it on this board - we adventure gamers play the "good games", the other gamers play the "bad games". You know, I love the movies "The Lord of the Rings", and there is a lot of action in those movies. Who knows, if I could ever get my reflexes up, maybe I would like an action game, along with my first love, adventure games.

Just a continuation of my thoughts.

Yipes!! This is off the main topic, but I couldn't let mszv's comment go by. There are SOME "strategy" games that don't get the blood pumping, but the vast majority (the RTS or Real-Time Strategies) are definitely NOT for the weak at heart. Not only do they induce adrenaline but they SUSTAIN it. I rarely feel as exhausted (gamewise) as after a massive strategy conflict. (not picking on you, mszv; just trying to prevent some misconception)

As for the rest of the discussion, perhaps the next question should be... how can adventures become relevant again?? It's all fine and well to appeal to the current niche market (us), but that'll never bridge the gap of age and interest like we're discussing here.

I'm extremely interested to see what LucasArts does with the Full Throttle and Sam & Max sequels. They've got a rich tradition of great adventures, obviously, but you can bet they won't be satisfied with marketing only to the "geezers", so I'm looking forward to seeing how they approach the problem.

Jack

Thanks Singer. You aren't picking on me at all! I didn't know a lot about strategy games, so you corrected my misconceptions. Thanks. Good to know they are exciting!

Just to throw in another angle on the making adventure games so that they have a broader appeal. My thought is - don't do that.

One of the advantages to adventure games that do appeal to the majority of hard core adventure fans is that they are relatively inexpensive as compared to action games or hybrids. They also tend to have a shorter development time table - assuming they are adequately funded from the start. A good example was cited in a canadian review of Syberia several months back.

The point I am throwing out is that Adventure games can be made that have elements that attract more action based gamers - but it will result in games that are too talky and plot driven for them and too actiony for the adventure fans, cost much more to produce and on a proportionate basis show less profit over time for the dollars spent in development. Less profits will translate into fewer such games. On the other hand - there is evidence that those who stick with the proven format (ie Herinteractive) make a steady profit of a highly reliable nature. Now you have Infogrames making a bid and winning - getting Herinteractive and the profitable ND titles for their publishing group.

If I were trying to entice investers in these uncertain economic times, I think that 2 million ventured over 2 years with 250,000 minimum in sales at 30.00 per game is a much better return than 30 million invested over 4 years that might be the next GTA or more likely a big bust.

I think that we will see more games produced in the future by the idea that sure and steady profits beat out speculative risk than changing our games to lure people who don't really want to play them in the first place.

Laura

Laura, I didn't actually suggest that developers should MAKE adventure games differently. I used words like "marketing" and "approach", which isn't the same thing.

In the glory days of Sierra and LucasArts, they didn't HAVE to market the adventure genre, because it was at or near the top. They didn't have to advertise their GAMES because the competition was so much less, and they were kings of the hill. Now that isn't true.

Personally, I do feel that - aside from a few exceptions - adventures are mired in mediocrity, and they do need to be improved and infused with new ideas. But that's not really on the table for anyone, so it's likely that the business model you're suggesting will continue. But since that would mean that we could be having this same "generation gap" conversation 5 years from now, I was trying to suggest something that might make some inroads in the meantime.

To address your point specifically, I don't disagree, but the fact that even DreamCatcher is branching into non-adventures (even to the point of distancing its DC brand name from the genre), is a fair indicator that although profitable, it's considered inside the industry as a market with limited potential.

All I can say at the moment is thank goodness for Microids!! The Adventure Company, too, although mostly they're just publishing sequels and Microids games lately.

Jack

Well...

Having just wrestled with the audio puzzle in real Myst.. Maybe they are sooooo jealous that we can still hear REAL sounds such as birds singing in the trees..

After all the assault their eardrums get from playing FPS games, they will be in first line for deafness/tinnitus I bet Most of them play with headphones on...

Tig

I wasn't disagreeing with you Singer. Actually - it was more that your comments triggered those thoughts. What I wrote isn't the sun total of my views on the industry - just an aspect of it.

I also think that marketing is needed to stimulate sales. There are also quite a few people out there who have no idea such games even exist and might prefer to play them as a family or even get them over console games for their younger kids to play.

On a personal preference note - I actually prefer the games of recent years over many of the older classics per se. I enjoy enhanced graphics, deeper sound tracks and a more versitile interface as well as plot lines. But when I consider that I do like the classics - and not everyone is fond of a more active game model - then I think that to build improvements into the genre - it has to be in terms of enhancements at first and not mucking around too much with the basic model. My preference would be to see more innovative plots and locales, throwing in alternate paths internally. The interface - I would think it best to leave mouse oriented. That seems to be one of the biggest sticky points for the majority of adventure gamers.

As for the new BS3, Sam and Max and even Full Throttle 2 - I will get them - play them and probably love the heck out of at least one if not all of them.

Laura

Yep, good insights all, Laura. Those types of enhancements are right along the lines of what I think are needed, too. Branching paths and multiple puzzle solutions are right at the top of my wish list. Plus the inclusion of actual AI instead of hard-scripted triggers would be a HUGE bonus (but that's getting back into the cost and time issue... sigh....)

Jack

One sentence says it nicely. Violent video games linked to aggressive behavior. And I like playing them. <img border="0" alt="" title="" src="graemlins/cry.gif" />

Oh don't worry Coreoverload,

My parents said the same thing about us watching The Three Stooges and I never once hit my brother in the head with a hammer. I like FSP's too. GTA Vice City is on the console deck now. I tend to think that it is a safe and non-real way to get rid of excess stress. vroom vroom.

Laura