Hi

As what we expect from a PC Adventure game differs so much from person to person.
Just how can a developer be expected to keep up ??

Some people seem to want absolute authenticity of characters and surroundings.

Others want superb graphics above all else.

The "pure adventurists" don't want any action sequences of any kind.

To some, the story is what matters THE most.

I could go on and on of course - there are so many individual likes and dislikes.

In the end we have to accept (or not accept ) what is on offer and make our choices.

For the most part I am personally very happy with most of what's available these days

How about anyone else

Cheers.

Mad

I would tend to agree with you Mad!

If a puzzle has one or two action or arcade sequences ...although I tremble at the thought...if I otherwise am intrigued with the game storyline...I'll go ahead and purchase the game.

I do appreciate the assistance of the gaming community...and the existence of the occasional cheat code (Ahem! Da Vinci Code ). If all else fails, there's always the "saved game" that you can request from a fellow gamer.

Some games I will enjoy more than others. Some games I've gotten dismayed at the direction the developer has gone to...e.g. Nancy Drew. You are right though...they can't please everyone. The feedback they receive is largely reflected in the sales of the game.

I guess as long as they keep making them...we'll keep buying them!

With great difficulty, I can tell you.

I enjoy visiting the forums and reading what people think, what their likes and dislikes are, but I cannot create games that address every individual comment. And if you really think about it, I don't think any of you would really want that. If I tried to please everyone I'd end up pleasing no one.

One of the things that's best about the adventure genre is the variety within it - probably more so than most other genres, if not all of them. We should revel in that variety and encourage it. What does it matter that a particular game has some action in it? It means that developers love the genre and want to add to the variety even more. If it's not your cup of tea, I'm sure that there are other games you can play, but please don't think the developer is actively trying to alienate you. If a game uses cartoon graphics, it doesn't mean that it's trivial in any way or can't have a rich story, it means that it suits the developer's vision to do it in that manner.

Variety is a real strength, not just of the games, but of the fans' tastes. However, fans also need to see that even if an adventure doesn't completely match their tastes, it's still and adventure and is part and parcel of what's keeping the genre alive.

When I was at this year's GC in Leipzig, I had the great fortune to meet a number of different developers, all of whom love developing adventures. People like Hal Barwood and Noah Falstein. The Culpa Innata people, including Laura MacDonald (herself a regular on the forums when she has time). But one of the most striking meetings was talking with Martin Ganteföhr, whose game Overclocked comes out soon.

I have a great deal of respect for Martin and what he's trying to do, but when you think of the two games we were showing at GC - So Blonde and Overclocked - you couldn't get two more different games that essentially use the same point and click principles. This illustrates perfectly what strength and breadth the adventure genre can give to us all.

And even though Martin and I are working on very different styles of game, we both want to give players the best adventure experience we can.

I do not expect a game developer to follow my vision of what a game should be like, partly because I have no idea what it is that makes a game work for me. But there are developers out there who create a game following some inner vision that they believe in and then again there are developers out there who are not interested in the game but the profit it will make and they will throw in the kitchen sink if they think it will bring in more cash whether it is good for the game or not. Lately there seem to be more of this type around, I'm sorry to say.

Thank you,Steve.

I love the diversity !

I'm just glad we all have a choice which games we like..

There's enough for everyones likes to go around..

Thank Goodness

If there are adventure developers out there doing this, I think they're in the wrong genre if they want lots of profit.

I'm generally very happy, the only things I abhor are action & timed sequences. If I wanted to play that sort of game I would be ordering Lara Croft. Many of us are not quick enough with the mouse/keyboard & others have had a hard day at work & need no more pressure. I like to take my time & try everything possible before admitting I'm stuck.
Having said that, I managed to get an apple in the new Nancy by zapping wasps quickly, thought I would never do it !

I'll tackle action, mazes, slider puzzles, timed sequences or anything thrown at me but I have to really get on with the main characters. I loved Broken Sword 3 because of the strong George/Nico story line and I cared about the characters. Broken Sword 4 left me cold because of lack of Geoge/Nico. Didn't we care about Kate Walker and Oscar and April Ryan and Crow? But lately the lead characters are not so appealing and I don't want to go through hell and high water for them. Is it just me or when was the last time a game bought a tear to your eye?

It's a bit like going to the library I think. You know which type of book you like and choose from them to get what you will enjoy reading. I read the reviews and buy the games that will suit me. Some times I make an exception as with Dead Reefs, guess what - I don't like it, except for the story which is great and hours of play, it's very long. So, different stroke for different folks.

Great topic

Hi Steve

I know there a lot of motivating forces in making adventure games (likely being insane and not worried about banking wads of cash helps)

But one thing that is key in our group is we love to play games ourselves. And Adventure games in particular. So I really crawl around every inch of design, ambiance, challenges, dialogues, characters and voices and always think would I like this? Would this make me crazy if it were in a game I was playing? Many of us make games we wish were out there that we want to play

I also think it helps to think on what is truly critical to getting your story and core ideas into gamers minds and imaginations. If there is something in your game that gamers as a core group hate or at best merely tolerate til they can get through it - get rid of it!

Did I ever mention how much I loathe timed mazes or re-setting sliders?

So I think some developers get locked into making their game deliberately obtuse, or one puzzle or another "just because". So I think in many respects finding volunteers if need be to play test your game in development is even more critical than bug testing. At least in the development or tweakable point of production.

Anyways back to it ...

and buy all our games! We don't want to be rich (or we'd work for a corporation heh) we just want to keep making games.

and Overclocked, So Blonde, The Abbey, The Lost Crown, Ghost in the Sheet and yup Culpa Innata -- viva diversity and thank goodness for Boomies and others who support all our interactive dreams with every BAAGing moment

Hi Laura.


I disagree. If a development team can't spot a potential howler at the design stage then development time could be seriously wasted. Bringing in people during development to test gameplay will really eat into your production schedule and your budget. One of the great things about working with Wizarbox is that we can thrash this kind of thing out at design time. It's also why I like reading the forums - I know the kind of things that people hate in advance, so I don't create them in the design. (Though I'm still looking for a way to create a timed maze that people would enjoy. )



And don't forget Momento Mori, Gray Matter, Mata Hari, too.

Timed anything scares the begeebies out of me. However, if it were generous time...a way to save your progress in the maze along the way....and perhaps some sort of 'hint' system....it would make it less "unenjoyable."

The one Sherlock Holmes game...I forget which...had a timed sequence in the park where Sherlock had to race to put out a fire. First off, you had to hit the spots on the screen just right to get Sherlock to progress quickly in the right direction...and secondly, he ran as if he had a piano on his back! One could get through it but only after quite a bit of frustration.

Perhaps that's what developers need to eliminate from games...the frustration a gamer experiences when they know what to do...but the game design makes it difficult.

I expect "this much" (from here.......to here). Since I don't know how much work goes into making games (I know it's a lot, though), it's hard to gauge, really. I'm just happy with the choices we have.

First thing that drew me to adventure games was that I wanted to 'dive' into a virtual place and 'be' there, experiencing the environment. The fantastic bonus was that I'd also get to try to figure out mysteries while wandering through their varied and wonderful environments... total, get-away-from-it-all immersion.

As I played more & more games, I discovered all the different types of gameplay... some preferred, some not. Also, I've come to appreciate the variety of game stories and gameplay. They're like works of art in a museum.

I agree entirely with you on that point. I get frustrated and a little annoyed sometimes when that kind of thing appears in the games I play. I always look to design my games to minimise that.

I was actually surprised at GC when I saw, in a game by someone who shall remain anonymous, an item on display that you couldn't pick up simply because the designer didn't want you to. Why on earth put it there to frustrate the player?

Somebody, please, explain to me why on earth would a game developer (or whoever is responsible) have the character stand right in front of the hot spot, right after one clicks on it, but before one can click a second time to pick it up or use it? How annoying is that? And yes, I do have a particular game in mind where this happens a lot and it is hard to move him over to add to the frustration.

Hi sierramindy ..

I was reading some of your post...You have some good points..

Have you ever decided to make your own adventure game...
Maybe then you can make everything the way you like it..

Just a thought

I stand to some extent on both sides of the divide between players and developers in that I'm among those making Adventure games as a hobby. The accent tends to be more on making rather than have made, but such is the way of many hobbies.

One difficulty is that we all use the term "Adventure", but what we mean by it may vary. So is "Full Throttle" an Adventure game? I would say yes, but it contains what for me are action sequences that I find close to impossible to play.

As a hobbyist game developer I want to put something of my own, some originality, push the envelope in some way, in any game I do. Developers like Steve Ince and Laura Macdonald will also want to do this, but they're more corralled by commercial realities. Not to do this would make developing games like working on an assembly line.

Pushing the envelope does mean you're not going to satisfy everyone. I'm pleased that games like "Dreamfall" are being produced. Good for Funcom. Whether "Dreamfall" is for me I don't know.

Ah, Dreamfall, what an experience that was for me. I went from thinking it was a fantastic game when I played as Zoe and was ready to give it an award for a great game. That was the "Dream..." part. Then came April with that miserable troll sequence where the whole game changed into something unplayable by me and that was the "...fall" part.
Sometimes I think they were 2 different games that didn't work separately so they were joined together to make a single game and one character was called April to cash in on the fact that The Longest Journey was such a hit. Except for the name, April here was nothing like April in the first game.

I consider myself more of an either/or type of player when it comes to what I want or get from adventures games.

My top preference is probably interesting characters, then the plot & story. But I've also had games I liked and held my attention just because of gorgeous graphics or challenging/unique/interesting puzzles, even if the characters & plot weren't that great.

I'm usually happy with all games, can find something I like in everything.

Well, Darleen2003,
If I ever made my own adventure game with everything in it that I liked, how could I have any fun playing the game? I would defeat my own purpose for playing, wouldn't I? Besides it is more fun to complain! Also, I have no idea what I like, I just know it when I see/play it.

I am desperately trying to pretend I'm Thumper. Fluffy, big ears, twitching nose - think I've got it!

Mad, you are so right. I so appreciate the diversity of games - I doubt there will ever be a game that everyone without exception will adore. Just like we don't all choose the same house, the same clothes, the same hobbies. What a dull world it would be if we did all only desire one thing, wouldn't it? Sometimes we can even think we might not like something, and try it anyway - some of the time we can be surprised that it is quite fun!

Hi

And , of course, if we feel so inclined, we can always do a "sierramindy" and get some fun from complaining !!

It takes all kinds

Cheers.

Mad

As my Granny said you cant please all of the people all at the same time .Some thing like that any way .Good for the system to have a good moan.If all of us were that happy most of us would nt be talking to each other .Or be on game boomers lol .I get lost in a good game or book so my family and friends some times moan at me .I am doing Hard Evidence at the momment and I am not talking to any one while playing that game I am there .In another world lol.or answering the phone .I can hear them OH SHES ON THAT DAM COMPUTOR AGAIN .

I've read complaints here, haven't I? Didn't you feel a certain sense of relief after posting? Otherwise you keep it inside, get headaches, get high blood pressure, maybe even get cancer, who needs any of that? Yes, I much prefer complaining when I feel like it. Also I'm not too fond, maybe you have noticed?, of saying exactly what everyone else is saying!
See, she's doing it again, the sierramindy thing.

You must feel very relieved.

After playing 5 years of adventures, I find my tastes are getting more particular rather than more encompassing. Even though there is a good variety of games available, there is still some degree of trends. Right now there seems to be fewer of 1st person puzzle/solitary exploration type games which are the ones I covet the most. As such, I have to admit a waning interest in the genre, though I do keep visiting the forums for info on new games.
I know I'm in the minority and that I'm overly restrictive. Other than PJ's jigsaws, I don't play any other games, but I have had more time for my other passion - reading .

For me as long as the game is fun, I really don't care. For example, normally I hate mazes, but tI liked the mazes in DSJ 3 - go figure! A lack of consistency bothers me as does changing the rules. Like when every object you examine in your inventory and you can only see from one side, but then they throw in one that you can rotate to see a note stuck on the bottom or something. If you can rotate one object, then you should be able to rotate all of them. It should be consistent. Or perhaps when left-clicking gets you through everything, then suddenly the game requires a right-click in a particular spot.

Anyway, the bottom line is that it should be fun. Developers can throw in whatever they want as far as I'm concerned as long as it's fair and balanced. Once the bad frustration sets in, then I quickly lose interest. "Bad frustration" meaning unfair. There is the "good frustration" by being faced with a particularly tough challenge, but there is a fine line there.

Hmmm, now I'm off and wondering if maybe facts and opinions aren't getting mixed up here. A game is a fact! Good and bad are judgement calls which in turn are opinions! The difference between a fact and an opinion is that a fact doesn't change and it is the same for everybody. Opinions, like fingerprints, are always personal, but unlike fingerprints (which are facts come to think of it) can change at any moment. Then again, fun and frustration are emotions and/or reactions and belong with opinions, not facts, at least I think so.
Now to show where I stand: I like opinions and I don't much care about facts. Since a fact stays the same there isn't that much to think about until one has an opinion or reaction to it.
I'm trying to show here that complaining about something doesn't mean that the something is like the complainer says it is EXCEPT to the complainer. So, complainers can only speak for themselves and that is exactly what I try to do. Sheesh, being honest isn't easy!

What do I expect from a game?

Well, whatever it says on the box really. If that's what it does, and how it looks and plays I can't fault it. I bought it after all.

What really annoys me though are games that do not run properly on the systems specified on the box.

I expect glitches if I buy older games and try to run them on a modern operating system, but not with new games. This smacks of "Get it on the shelf quickly and get the money rolling in. Nevermind if it does not work, they've already bought it!"
With the cost of some games I do not think it is reasonable to expect the customer to beta test the products without knowing.

One game I had this experience with was Runaway - A Road Adventure. Whatever I have tried it will not run past the introduction video sequence. I have e-mailed the Pendulo help address several times, but never recieved a reply, let alone a solution.

I am not alone with this problem, and the fault appears to be crying out for a patch, but obviously the makers can't be bothered.

Needless to say I will not be buying any more games from this source.

Hi

I have vary rarely bought a game which I haven't been able to get to run no matter what .... In fact I truly can't name a single ONE. So you have been unlucky there

I presume the answer is that all games simply won't run on all systems .... no matter how hard the developers try .... Or we would be in Eutopia

But I presume you haven't had TOO MUCH bad luck because I see you here on the Adventure Discussion Board quite a lot - so I'm guessing you have SOME goodies to talk about

Cheers.

Mad

What I expect is that a game will be what it says it is. If it's supposed to be an adventure game, I don't want it to turn out to be a collection of arcade sequences. If it's advertised as "Myst-like" I expect a lot of mechanical puzzles and I don't want to be listening to a lot of dialogue. If it says it's reminiscent of the old LucasArts games, I expect a certain level of quality in the way the game is put together -- the soundtrack, the humor, the voice acting.

I also expect the interface to work with the game. I don't care if it's a point-and-click like Syberia or a real time 3D like Sentinel, but I do expect a manageable interface (as these 2 games had). I don't want to have to learn a completely new control system for every new game I play, especially because it involves unlearning what I learned in the last game -- and pity the gamer who has more than one game going at the same time. I also don't want to have to click 6 different things just to apply an inventory item. And I don't want to have to have to fiddle with moving a character around and facing all different directions in order to locate and pick up inventory. That's not what I think of as manageable.

I also expect the game to be tested for bugs, both the gamestopping kind and the nuisance kind where you hear conversations out of order or miss them entirely. It shouldn't be necessary to do things in a certain order to avoid a dead end. No one likes to be told that that's the reason they're stuck.

Amen to that Jenny. You very eloquently put what I have been unable to express so far. Well said and I wholehearedly agree.

Ana

Thank Goodness...

For the reviewers on this forum....
I am not in the dark anymore..when I buy a game..

Hi Mad!

Maybe you read me wrong. I'm an avid adventure gamer, and have had to do some strange things to my PC to get it to run various games at one time or another. Runaway defies all attempts.

What I object to is the complete indifference referred to in my post above. I would expect a reputable company, when provided with the full specification of an operating system to at least offer an explanation of why the game will not run, and not just ignore me.

I expect to be absorbed within the game. I prefer my games to be mouse-driven and I do like pretty graphics. A story is nice but not essential to the enjoyment (some of them really wouldn't hold up to scrutiny but were fun anyway). For me it is like being involved within a book and I play instead of read it.

I don't like the way the Nancy Drew games have been going as I feel like a virtual slave doing all those chores instead of investigating a mystery. I really liked the earlier games like Haunted Mansion and Royal Tower. I don't like extremely long dialog trees unless they are witty, like TLJ. And I loved Flight of the Amazon Queen and really enjoy games like that but I am not sure how you would characterize them.

I do expect the game to look like the screenshots.

Does this help?
Linda

Hi gordon24

I must agree that to be completely ignored when you have a problem is not nice

Have you tried asking for help on our Glitches Board ??

The techies residing (and visiting) there have been known to come up with all sorts of stylish solutions to problems

Cheers.

Mad

Thanks Mad,

Tried Gameboomers and other "Glitch" forums back in July, and tried all the suggestions to no avail. Thought I had solved it by getting a saved game from a pal from the very beginning of the game which allowed me to start it, but as soon as another video sequence came up the programme went into a continuous loop again.

It appears that something is missing that tells the programme to return to the game at the end of a video cut scene, so it just repeats endlessly.

gordon24

For new AGs, I expect it to be as advertised - to want to play it it has to have a good story with an easy interface. ( I will put up with something clumsier if the game is good enough but I can't see the need - developers should put more thought into this in the first place!!!) The game should have no installation problems & NO GLITCHES! - these should be ironed out before the game is released! (In my experience the Indie developers generally seem to be better than that than large publishers) I also expect a good support system - there are so many different PC types & configurations that the developer/publisher should be prepared to make sure their games work on a variety of systems & give the necessary support to make it happen!
The games should also play consistently (Re:Ivinia's post earlier!) - i.e no changing the rules during the game!!

I think Jenny100 has caught what I expect out of a game to be satisfied. If the images in the game are about the same quality as the ones shown on the box & the website, if the interface works well enough for what I am asked to do (no speed challenges for Mr Turtle characters or cursors), if it reminds me reasonably of whatever genre it claims to be like - then its fair.

If the story engages my mind, the puzzles tease me into solving them, the dialogue makes me laugh so hard it instantly becomes a family pre-occupation (because they heard and came over to join in) and/or the game as a whole can keep me so immersed I forget I just missed lunch (or first looked for it in the village onscreen) - then I just found a new classic.

My current goal in life is to share a story or five that are that good...though it will probably take me years (especially at the current rate of progress :P) But, hey, we all have to have a dream

Susan

Let's hear it for Flight of the Amazon Queen, which I found in Free Games Galore over a year ago, but it probably still is there. I definitely call it an: Adventure Game! It harkens back to the good adventure days when the adventure came before the fancy high-tech stuff which is more pre-occupied with getting real-life effects like shadows and blowing leaves and moving waves and never mind the reason for playing in the first place. I don't look at shadows in real life, why should I bother with them in a game?

I fully agree with chrissie.

After BAAGing my way through mainstream games I have only relatively recently begun investing in Indie games. I find the way these games run on my PC to be on the whole more reliable than the "Big Name" games.

If Indies can do it with their proportionately limited resources there is no excuse for the big players in the market not getting it right.

gordon24

Well, of course there is an excuse for not getting it right. It is called Murphy's Law: If there is a wromg way to do something, somebody will find it! I know for a fact as I have found it many a time myself.

Hi

I still play Flight of the Amazon Queen from my original boxed version bought years ago. Love it !!

In fact I still play many old adventures from that era - they form the core of my games collection. But unfortunately, in some ways, not many of them have ever become free downloads.

I feel though that the criteria in those days was much different than today. Expectations of graphics and the like certainly didn't seem to be so demanding. Not many people would even have had a PC sophisticated enough to handle anything better.
[I didn't demand anything more than I got, I was so very happy to get whatever was available ]

As we all know, none of the really BIG game developers from those days are ever likey to return to that format and give us more - but we are being treated to generous portions of games that are very like Traditional Adventure Games from newer, up and coming developers

And if we keep buying their products hopefully they will keep making games for us

Cheers.

Mad

Good to hear of people aiming to share stories.

Hope you find (if required) the necessary help!

What do i expect from a game?...well...Everything!! I expect to be absorbed into it...able to navigate through it without wishing i were an octopus. I expect a great story, great testing,..ALL of it great! AND i expect it to be aware of the fact that not everyone will have a brand spanking new PC! Thank goodness for the 'Indie' developers for giving us what we want....well done adventure games....not action/adventure games..but Adventure games! They fill a niche that had been wanting! I just love it when after only the first few minutes of play i have to pause, go turn on answering machine, let dog out/in, feed dog, get a plate of snacks ready, get hot pot heating water for tea...(or fill extra ice cube tray-or both), and set the VCR.... Really enjoy getting 'sucked' into a game....is such a wonderful experience..atmosphere;atmosphere!!

Hi

"Really enjoy getting 'sucked' into a game....is such a wonderful experience..atmosphere;atmosphere!!"

Oh, I so AGREE !!!!

Cheers.

Mad