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#220042 - 10/22/07 04:54 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: rebecca53]
chrissie Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4403
Loc: london uk
Hi Rebecca, I think you made a lot of good points but would argue that for the most part AGs are maybe guilty of a little stereotyping but are not overtly sexist - they are more guilty of being ageist! lol If the story is good I don't care how the protagonist is portrayed, yes, they are usually young, often with tight/skimpy clothing but, I have to say a lot more respectably dressed than I see on the bus every morning (regardless of the weather!) In the games I just see it as a reflection of the way that young women choose to dress in the real world. If they are doing their job in the game it should not make any difference to your feelings about them! (Does that make sense?) The only games that I have really come across that can be accused of overt sexism fall in other categories outside of pure AG! The most obvious is Tomb Raider featuring the impossible attributes of Lara Croft. But, hey, I don't take any notice, they are excellent games!

On the subject of having older characters - for me, story is everything, if it's good enough a game could have a protanonist with no hair, teeth & wear tartan slippers! rotfl Seriously it might be nice if sometimes older women were featured.
smile

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#220043 - 10/22/07 04:57 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Karsten]
RayBres Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 165
Loc: Des Plaines, Illinois
Originally Posted By: Karsten
I think I know what was going on in Ragnar's mind when he designed Zoë and April. Ragnar is a Norwegian, and many Norwegian and Scandinavian women do sleep in their underwear, not in a PJ. I have played the first part of TLJ and Dreamfall, and I do find that is is an important thing to the story that the female avatar in both games are in their underwear.


Neither of these female characters is supposed to be Norwegian, nor do I see any reason you give as to why it's important to the story that they be so dressed.
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#220072 - 10/22/07 05:41 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: RayBres]
Karsten Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 10/25/06
Posts: 1477
Loc: Denmark, Europe
For me, the story is everything, too smile I wouldn't mind an older detective or protagonist solving the puzzles in adventure games.
If we're talking about older female protagonists, I think we need to see a Jessica Fletcher mystery adventure game or a Jane Marple adventure mystery game. Sherlock Holmes adventure games do feature an older (male) protagonist, but in the recent games, he is not seen on screen as I understand it.

And thank you, MAG, for re-assuring me that April fights in Dreamfall, too. I hadn't quite gotten to that part yet, but it's good to know smile

As for Ragnar being Norwegian, I think we all bear part of culture with us when we make games. I don't think that Ragnar meant to offend anyone by having April or Zoë running around in their underwear. April is dreaming at the start of TLJ, and then wakes up, gets out of bed and is in her underwear, just like thousands of other women in Scandinavia. Ragnar just thought about how women normally look when they wake up and put that into the game. And normally, most females in Scandinavia will wear a t-shirt and underwear when they go to sleep. Sometimes they might wear a PJ, but only when its cold outside...

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#220081 - 10/22/07 05:59 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: RayBres]
Teddo Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 627
Loc: Florida
First of all, I'm not gay, AND I do enjoy seeing beautiful sexy women in games, just as I enjoy beautiful sexy men. Gabriel Knight sure rang my chimes. To me, it's not an important part of the game, but is nice eye candy. I enjoy adult games as long as they don't go overboard, though I realize that is subjective.
Probably because the Nancy Drew games are slanted toward a younger audience, you don't find "objectionable" dress or bodies.
You will find older characters in games...not as the main characters, but holding sizeable roles. By the way, I'm in my mid seventies and am far from a "wild thing".

Teddo
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#220087 - 10/22/07 06:05 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Karsten]
RayBres Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 165
Loc: Des Plaines, Illinois
Karsten, I don't want to get into a dispute about this, and of course you're entitled to your opinions. Nevertheless, neither of these women characters are supposed to be Scandinavian, and I doubt that you or I or anyone else has any claim to insight as to what Ragnar was thinking about this or any other subject under the sun unless he has so stated.

As for all of us carrying our culture with us, Ragnar was educated in the UK and now lives in the US. So, he knows something about other cultures too. smile
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#220088 - 10/22/07 06:07 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: rebecca53]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35314
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: rebecca53
Jenny -- Thank you for the rec for Egypt II, the Heliopsis Prophesy. Strangely enough, I have the game, unwrapped, and never played it because Egypt (I) was pretty much hated from the get go.


Egypt 1 was awful. The best part of it was the encyclopedia. shocked

Egypt 2 has a patch for crashes in XP which may also help with a problem with panning being too fast on modern computers (which are much faster than the 200 MHz or so computer the game was originally designed for).
http://www.adventurecompanygames.com/tac/support/pc/patches/egypt2.php

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#220107 - 10/22/07 06:34 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Jenny100]
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14750
Loc: Northeast NJ
I really think that some are taking it way to personal.

This is a game <people>
Games make us happy...Now we are going to resort to being politically correct in adventure games..Oh please..

I am so happy that the developers are starting to realize the mass adventure gamers out there....They are making great games..

Why would anyone want to destroy that by saying they are making games for one gender only ..and in a sexist fashion..

This post is not fair at all........

Example........Al Emmo the charater was made to talk & look like Woody Allen....Some did not like him.......I loved the little Nerd ..cause he fit the part...

Who cares if a girl is sexy or not......I love to see pretty woman...

OH Geezzzzz...

Lets not make this an issue....The deveolpers are doing a fine job as far as i am concern thumbsup

PS...I love Lara Croft from the tomb raider games.. hearts



Edited by Darleen2003 (10/22/07 06:53 PM)
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#220147 - 10/22/07 07:45 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Darleen03]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26894
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
Let's get back to recommending games with strong female characters in them, and not criticize or get into specifics about other gamers' reactions. Everybody's entitled to their own likes and dislikes.

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#220162 - 10/22/07 08:13 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Becky]
RayBres Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 165
Loc: Des Plaines, Illinois
Yes, Becky, exactly.

To get back on topic, here's a list of games which have significant female characters (if not protagonists) that aren't just eye candy but have decent characters and make good contributions:

Atlantis: New Worlds Await You (is that III? - the one with the Mastroianni character), Black Dahlia, Cameron Files (both), Monkey Island games (Elaine), Destination: Treasure Island, Echo: Secrets of the Lost Cavern, The Dig, Jack the Ripper, The Last Express, Law & Order: Justice Is Served, Journeyman Project games, The Messenger, The Moment of Silence, Mystery of the Druids, Myst (any), Sanitarium (Sara!), Secrets of Da Vinci, Tex Murphy games (Chelsea), The Watchmaker, The X-Files Game.

That's the best I could do quickly.



Edited by RayBres (10/22/07 08:15 PM)
Edit Reason: typos
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#220200 - 10/22/07 09:19 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: RayBres]
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14750
Loc: Northeast NJ
Hi RayBres

I guess you sumed it up...Thats a good list thumbsup

Hey Becky hearts
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GameBoomers
"Games Are More Enticing Because Of Our "MaG"nificent Efficient Radiant Site"

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#220209 - 10/22/07 09:45 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Darleen03]
RayBres Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 165
Loc: Des Plaines, Illinois
Thanks, Darleen. I should mention that I omitted games that had already been named in the thread. And, alas, there's always one that gets away: Paradise. oops


Edited by RayBres (10/22/07 09:46 PM)
Edit Reason: yet more typos
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#220264 - 10/22/07 11:34 PM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: RayBres]
rebecca53 Offline
Shy Boomer

Registered: 09/19/07
Posts: 19
Loc: Bay Area CA
Wow, I go to work for the day/evening and come back to sort of a wild discussion. Thank you to everyone who gave me some recommendations, and by now this thread has devolved to the point that I'm unable to reply individually, but as a whole, thank you. I've made my list and will follow up with searching and reading reviews and such. Happy game playing ahead smile . Thank you, also, for the tips about XP compatibility, and the confirmation that Egypt (I) really was horrible smile .

I certainly have any number of reactions to some of the opinions which have been voiced. Personally, I don't honestly care if people have no problem with Barbie characters developed by men, if they can ignore that and feel okay about supporting the developers, that's their choice and I have no response to it. I'm too old, and have been around about this too many times to believe that much will ever fundamentally change. For goodness sakes, this is 2007, and the obsession with cleavage (not that there's anything wrong with cleavage, per se wink ) is as strong as it ever was, if not stronger, and women come down hard on feminists as strongly, it not more strongly, than they ever did.

But that's another topic for a different forum. For me, the most depressing aspect of game design is epitomized by Culpa Innata. That is a game which is set in a self-defined (by the developers) future time. This is supposed to be our enlightened future. A point in our cultural development when the world(s) will be a very different place, where it's assumed that learning and technology will have advanced the civilization to, at least, some degree. And the woman protagonist looks like she's the blow-up doll fantasy of a thirteen year old boy. That is, frankly, depressing.

To go sort of OT here, a long time ago (like 25+ years or so), a man named John Varley wrote some ground-breaking science fiction books. Wizard; Titan; and Demon. There was a woman hero/protagonist, and another woman who was her side-kick. There were male characters, too, among other alien life forms wink . He wrote such fascinating, strong, flawed, insecure, intelligent, complex women that most women who read the books assumed "John Varley" was a woman's pseudonym. It wasn't. I still love sci-fi, and it's one of the reasons I play adventure games. Maybe I simply long for a John Varley type of character to get behind, and maybe I simply hope that any man imagining the future would look beyond his own adolescent (completely unrealistic) fantasies and give me a real woman to get behind.

Thank you, again, for the recs. They are sincerely appreciated. Happy gaming, everyone.
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"Reality is leaking again." Diana Trent, Waiting for God

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#220272 - 10/23/07 12:25 AM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: rebecca53]
MaG Offline
Administrator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 65820
Maybe if you see more of the game Culpa than just a trailer, you might get a more in depth view of the heroine of the game. She might just surprise you with her character; regardless of how she looks.
Phoenix might even be as good as April or Ariane or Kate Walker.

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#220304 - 10/23/07 04:31 AM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: MaG]
Karsten Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 10/25/06
Posts: 1477
Loc: Denmark, Europe
-eh- I wasn't out to tell anyone that their view was wrong or something like that. I'm too old for this, but as said before, story is everything to me.

Maybe it's because I live in Denmark where we have female attorney general who is sharp politically as well as good looking. (although some south europeans apparently still thinks she's the secretary or something like that, but that's a discussion for another day, I think).

The point I'm trying to make is that women, both in real life, and in adventure games, can be smart and goodlooking at the same time and be dressed somewhat accordingly to their gender.

And I don't mean the traditional D&D or male way of thinking women should dress in computergames. I just mean cowboypants, t-shirts, and the occasionally party gown and such things.

I know it isn't an adventure game, but I think you will be surprised if you play Bioware's new sci-fi game, Mass Effect. You can play as a female Shepard, the main character in the game. I even think you can make a somewhat older female Shepard.

And the female Shepard can be as hardhitting or as diplomatic as her male counterpart. That's becaise Bioware truly has great writers, among them one Patrick Weekes who I think wrote some of female Shepard's lines in the game.

This brings us back to adventure games with a female lead or characters:

King's Quest 4 and King's Quest 7 have some of the best written female leads in adventure games, I think. You can get the new
King's Quest Collection if you so choose.

Just a quick mentioning of the games I can think of right now:
Gabriel Knight 1-3, Broken Sword 1-4, Syberia 1-2, Carol Reed mysteries (from Michael and Ellen's MDNA games in Sweden),
The Longest Journey, Dreamfall, Secret files: Tunguska.

I just remembered two more games: Return to Mysterious Island, and Journey to the Center of the Earth that also features female protagonists.

As for the John Varley's writings why don't people write his publishing house or himself to see if he would be interested in adapting one of his novels? or short stories for an adventure game? If not, make we could turn to either Ursula K. Le Guin, the grand dame of the sci litterature, or to a Lady who recently won the Nobel Prize for her writings, Doris Lessing...

I think I will go check out the new Culpa Innata now ---
to form my opinion on it.

/Karsten


Edited by Karsten (10/23/07 04:36 AM)
Edit Reason: layout
_________________________
Adventure gaming is fun smile


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#220361 - 10/23/07 08:41 AM Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Karsten]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26894
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
I just received this press release below. I thought it might interest those participating on this thread:

Quote:
"XFIRE DEBATE CLUB" TO DISCUSS WOMEN AND GAMING

Join the Panel on Thursday, October 25 at 4:00 PM EDT


WHAT:
Xfire - the eight million strong gaming community - is proud to present an all-new installment of the "Xfire Debate Club - Women and Gaming." In this interactive debate, a panel of women experts will discuss a range of subjects including gaming culture, game marketing, portrayal of female characters in video games, the online gaming experience as women, and participation in gaming communities.

WHO:
Xfire welcomes the following "Debate Club" participants:
· Leigh Alexander, Staff Writer, Gamasutra;
· Colette Bennett, Editor, Destructoid;
· Amber "AthenaTwin" Dalton, Clan Leader and Founder, PMS Clan;
· Robyn Fleming, Senior Editor, Cerise Magazine;
· Maggie Green, Associate Editor, Weekends, Kotaku;
· Jasmin Kassner, Founder, PixelTamer Games;
· Helen Kennedy, Senior Lecturer, University of the West of England;
· Christa "TriXie" Phillips, Community Editor, Xbox.com;
· Lesley Smith, Freelance Games Journalist; and
· The Xfire Community

WHEN:
Thursday, October 25, 4:00pm EDT

WHERE:
Via Xfire, www.xfire.com/debate

WHY:
"Women play an increasingly important role within the gaming industry as gaming becomes ever more mainstream," said Frederic Descamps, senior director of marketing at Xfire. "We are thrilled to welcome this panel of experts, each of whom brings a unique perspective and approach to issues facing women in the industry."



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