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Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Darleen03] #220209
10/22/07 09:45 PM
10/22/07 09:45 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 169
Des Plaines, Illinois
RayBres Offline
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Thanks, Darleen. I should mention that I omitted games that had already been named in the thread. And, alas, there's always one that gets away: Paradise. oops

Last edited by RayBres; 10/22/07 09:46 PM. Reason: yet more typos

ray
Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: RayBres] #220264
10/22/07 11:34 PM
10/22/07 11:34 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19
Bay Area CA
rebecca53 Offline OP
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Wow, I go to work for the day/evening and come back to sort of a wild discussion. Thank you to everyone who gave me some recommendations, and by now this thread has devolved to the point that I'm unable to reply individually, but as a whole, thank you. I've made my list and will follow up with searching and reading reviews and such. Happy game playing ahead smile . Thank you, also, for the tips about XP compatibility, and the confirmation that Egypt (I) really was horrible smile .

I certainly have any number of reactions to some of the opinions which have been voiced. Personally, I don't honestly care if people have no problem with Barbie characters developed by men, if they can ignore that and feel okay about supporting the developers, that's their choice and I have no response to it. I'm too old, and have been around about this too many times to believe that much will ever fundamentally change. For goodness sakes, this is 2007, and the obsession with cleavage (not that there's anything wrong with cleavage, per se wink ) is as strong as it ever was, if not stronger, and women come down hard on feminists as strongly, it not more strongly, than they ever did.

But that's another topic for a different forum. For me, the most depressing aspect of game design is epitomized by Culpa Innata. That is a game which is set in a self-defined (by the developers) future time. This is supposed to be our enlightened future. A point in our cultural development when the world(s) will be a very different place, where it's assumed that learning and technology will have advanced the civilization to, at least, some degree. And the woman protagonist looks like she's the blow-up doll fantasy of a thirteen year old boy. That is, frankly, depressing.

To go sort of OT here, a long time ago (like 25+ years or so), a man named John Varley wrote some ground-breaking science fiction books. Wizard; Titan; and Demon. There was a woman hero/protagonist, and another woman who was her side-kick. There were male characters, too, among other alien life forms wink . He wrote such fascinating, strong, flawed, insecure, intelligent, complex women that most women who read the books assumed "John Varley" was a woman's pseudonym. It wasn't. I still love sci-fi, and it's one of the reasons I play adventure games. Maybe I simply long for a John Varley type of character to get behind, and maybe I simply hope that any man imagining the future would look beyond his own adolescent (completely unrealistic) fantasies and give me a real woman to get behind.

Thank you, again, for the recs. They are sincerely appreciated. Happy gaming, everyone.


"Reality is leaking again." Diana Trent, Waiting for God
Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: rebecca53] #220272
10/23/07 12:25 AM
10/23/07 12:25 AM
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 69,973
MaG Offline
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Maybe if you see more of the game Culpa than just a trailer, you might get a more in depth view of the heroine of the game. She might just surprise you with her character; regardless of how she looks.
Phoenix might even be as good as April or Ariane or Kate Walker.

Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: MaG] #220304
10/23/07 04:31 AM
10/23/07 04:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,617
Denmark, Europe
Karsten Offline
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-eh- I wasn't out to tell anyone that their view was wrong or something like that. I'm too old for this, but as said before, story is everything to me.

Maybe it's because I live in Denmark where we have female attorney general who is sharp politically as well as good looking. (although some south europeans apparently still thinks she's the secretary or something like that, but that's a discussion for another day, I think).

The point I'm trying to make is that women, both in real life, and in adventure games, can be smart and goodlooking at the same time and be dressed somewhat accordingly to their gender.

And I don't mean the traditional D&D or male way of thinking women should dress in computergames. I just mean cowboypants, t-shirts, and the occasionally party gown and such things.

I know it isn't an adventure game, but I think you will be surprised if you play Bioware's new sci-fi game, Mass Effect. You can play as a female Shepard, the main character in the game. I even think you can make a somewhat older female Shepard.

And the female Shepard can be as hardhitting or as diplomatic as her male counterpart. That's becaise Bioware truly has great writers, among them one Patrick Weekes who I think wrote some of female Shepard's lines in the game.

This brings us back to adventure games with a female lead or characters:

King's Quest 4 and King's Quest 7 have some of the best written female leads in adventure games, I think. You can get the new
King's Quest Collection if you so choose.

Just a quick mentioning of the games I can think of right now:
Gabriel Knight 1-3, Broken Sword 1-4, Syberia 1-2, Carol Reed mysteries (from Michael and Ellen's MDNA games in Sweden),
The Longest Journey, Dreamfall, Secret files: Tunguska.

I just remembered two more games: Return to Mysterious Island, and Journey to the Center of the Earth that also features female protagonists.

As for the John Varley's writings why don't people write his publishing house or himself to see if he would be interested in adapting one of his novels? or short stories for an adventure game? If not, make we could turn to either Ursula K. Le Guin, the grand dame of the sci litterature, or to a Lady who recently won the Nobel Prize for her writings, Doris Lessing...

I think I will go check out the new Culpa Innata now ---
to form my opinion on it.

/Karsten

Last edited by Karsten; 10/23/07 04:36 AM. Reason: layout

Adventure gaming is fun smile

Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Karsten] #220361
10/23/07 08:41 AM
10/23/07 08:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 26,918
Stony Brook, New York, USA
Becky Offline
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I just received this press release below. I thought it might interest those participating on this thread:

Quote:
"XFIRE DEBATE CLUB" TO DISCUSS WOMEN AND GAMING

Join the Panel on Thursday, October 25 at 4:00 PM EDT


WHAT:
Xfire - the eight million strong gaming community - is proud to present an all-new installment of the "Xfire Debate Club - Women and Gaming." In this interactive debate, a panel of women experts will discuss a range of subjects including gaming culture, game marketing, portrayal of female characters in video games, the online gaming experience as women, and participation in gaming communities.

WHO:
Xfire welcomes the following "Debate Club" participants:
· Leigh Alexander, Staff Writer, Gamasutra;
· Colette Bennett, Editor, Destructoid;
· Amber "AthenaTwin" Dalton, Clan Leader and Founder, PMS Clan;
· Robyn Fleming, Senior Editor, Cerise Magazine;
· Maggie Green, Associate Editor, Weekends, Kotaku;
· Jasmin Kassner, Founder, PixelTamer Games;
· Helen Kennedy, Senior Lecturer, University of the West of England;
· Christa "TriXie" Phillips, Community Editor, Xbox.com;
· Lesley Smith, Freelance Games Journalist; and
· The Xfire Community

WHEN:
Thursday, October 25, 4:00pm EDT

WHERE:
Via Xfire, www.xfire.com/debate

WHY:
"Women play an increasingly important role within the gaming industry as gaming becomes ever more mainstream," said Frederic Descamps, senior director of marketing at Xfire. "We are thrilled to welcome this panel of experts, each of whom brings a unique perspective and approach to issues facing women in the industry."



Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Darleen03] #220371
10/23/07 09:02 AM
10/23/07 09:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 503
NY, USA
UpToo Late Offline
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I just wanted to add that it IS possible to have natural double-DD's AND an MFA -- I know I do. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[I hope I phrased that in a sufficiently "family-friendly" way -- just trying to inject a bit of humor while also pointing out that some women actually are "well endowed" (i.e, it's not only a matter of game-designer fantasy), and, more importantly, that intelligence and various "attributes" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. whistle smile ]

Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: UpToo Late] #220385
10/23/07 09:46 AM
10/23/07 09:46 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 26,918
Stony Brook, New York, USA
Becky Offline
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Becky  Offline
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Up Too Late -- it's so family friendly, I don't understand it. lol They say ignorance is bliss.

Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Becky] #220390
10/23/07 10:04 AM
10/23/07 10:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 83,270
In the Naughty Corner
BrownEyedTigre Offline
The Sassy Admin and PR Liaison
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Becky, CYPM. lol

Ana wave


Don't feed the Trolls
Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: BrownEyedTigre] #220394
10/23/07 10:09 AM
10/23/07 10:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 503
NY, USA
UpToo Late Offline
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LOL, Becky and Ana/BrownEyedTigre.

Becky, if Ana hasn't explained it sufficiently in her PM to you, just e-mail me and I'll explain, lol. thumbsup lol

Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Becky] #220410
10/23/07 10:51 AM
10/23/07 10:51 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 19
Bay Area CA
rebecca53 Offline OP
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Thank you, Becky, for the head's up re: the discussion of women and gaming. I will definitely check it out, and hope that they cover adventure games and not simply those other types wink .

I only have two other points to make before I move on (I have software to test; my boss - though lover of adventure games - is raggin' on me to find those bugs! lol).

There is a common argument that's made whenever someone points out sexism (or homophobia, or racism.... etc). It's the "you don't have any right to criticize others because then you're the one whose not letting other people be free to be whomever they want to be. You're the one who's acting the judge. And that's wrong." It's a deflecting argument, and it's mostly specious. It's telling the person to, basically, shut up, and no matter how "cleverly" it's done, the bottom line is the same. Shut up and stop rocking the boat.

I have every right to judge a game designer's attitude and perspective based upon a trailer or a demo. They're trying to sell the game, and presenting their best face to do so. I call sexism, and I call nonsense, and I voice extreme disappointment in a real lack of "big picture" thinking on the part of Culpa Innata's game designers.

That they may make the protagonist's personality in a more mainstream/acceptable/potentially positive way is almost worse, and I could point anyone to any number of essays and treatise's on how and why that makes it worse but I don't have the time right now to find them. Quick and dirty (so to speak wink ) -- putting a "strong" personality in a blow-up doll body isn't feminist, or empowering (as if that's even their goal) for women and girls. It's a double whammy message. "Look, kids, you can be smart and clever and strong (as long as you keep those pesky emotions to yourself!), but don't forget you have to look like a Playboy bunny in the process! *That's* the ideal woman, don'tchaknow!"

I'm not saying that Culpa Innata's game designers even thought that far when they created this character. I would guess that they didn't think anything except how well she would sell the product.

I'm also not saying that every woman who is well-endowed is automatically an idiot, or automatically anything. I am saying that this game is an example of a number of bad things that I see in adventure games. As far as I can tell, the game designers aren't particularly looking for my business and don't care if they get my $ for their game or not. They don't look for 50+ year old feminist (women or men) adventure gamers. I would hazard a guess that they don't even think there are any and wouldn't care if there were. Unfair on my part? Why? Because...... they might have given the character intelligence? How generous of them. </sarcasm>

I care about these things, and I choose to spend my $ to support game designers who do, too. I'm honestly heartsick at what girls and young women take away from these gaming experiences. These fantasy worlds that are supposed to be rife with the possibilities of what the future might offer. Someone upthread had it right - they take away all kinds of bad and dangerous messages. I choose not to give these guys my hard-earned $. I have no doubt that I'll survive just fine without playing Culpa Innata, lol.




"Reality is leaking again." Diana Trent, Waiting for God
Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: rebecca53] #220424
10/23/07 11:12 AM
10/23/07 11:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 83,270
In the Naughty Corner
BrownEyedTigre Offline
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Quote:
I'm not saying that Culpa Innata's game designers even thought that far when they created this character. I would guess that they didn't think anything except how well she would sell the product.


Rebecca, you have not played the game, so it is unfair for you to state the reasoning behind the developers portrayal of the heroine in Culpa Innata. She fits in well with the story and she is more in control than you can imagine of her sexuality and feminism. They gave a lot of thought on how to create and portray her and I believe they got they point across very well.

Ana wave


Don't feed the Trolls
Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: BrownEyedTigre] #220427
10/23/07 11:19 AM
10/23/07 11:19 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 503
NY, USA
UpToo Late Offline
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Rebecca,

I hope you don't think that I thought you were implying that all "well-endowed" women are idiots or anything along those lines -- I did not think that was your position. smile

My comments were meant in general, to add to the discussion, and were definitely not directed specifically towards you. In fact I respect your view, and I agree that all too often game designers do create female characters with unrealistically endowed yet otherwise very slender bodies. I'm smart, I'm naturally large-chested, and I'm a feminist, lol! (Well, actually "humanist" would be closer to the actuality for me, but let's not quibble, lol).

Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: rebecca53] #220429
10/23/07 11:21 AM
10/23/07 11:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,805
Kentucky, USA
acornia Offline
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Wow, don't really care a whole lot about how a character looks as much as acts. Find it curious that you came to gaming from reading sci-fi. I did, too. Bought Betrayal in Krondor at the same time that bought my computer. Also bought The Dig when it came out. Feist and Foster are both authors that I like.

Also wouldn't mind seeing Jane Marple or Mrs Pollifax mysteries. Or someone younger like in the Margeret Maron? mysteries. One series is with a cop and the other with a judge.


Never resist a generous impulse.
Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: acornia] #220481
10/23/07 01:47 PM
10/23/07 01:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 26,918
Stony Brook, New York, USA
Becky Offline
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Thanks Ana! lol

Rebecca -- Thematic Spoilers for Culpa Innata Within:

Click to reveal..
Culpa Innata is a deeper game than would appear from seeing the trailers or even from playing the first couple of hours of the game. You may find that, by two-thirds of the way through, the developers agree more with your world view than you think. Part of the point of the game is definitely that surface appearances and a focus on youth and wealth are troubling (to put it mildly).

However, to get there the game does show the youth-and-money-is-everything lifestyle in what at first seems to be a flattering light.


If you do ever play the game, when you're done, I'd be curious as to your reaction to the way these issues were handled.

Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: Becky] #220722
10/23/07 11:01 PM
10/23/07 11:01 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 34,312
United Kingdom
Mad Offline
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Hi smile

Well, I have to say that this has all become very serious woozy

I personally play games to have FUN and if the story is good and the puzzles don't drive me insane, well then I enjoy myself bravo

So do I passionately care about the sex or shape or about any other attributes of my protagonist ??

Not a whit !! lol

Cheers.

Mad devilchili


Time : The Most Precious Commodity
Re: Games with women characters - recommendations? [Re: rebecca53] #220756
10/24/07 01:58 AM
10/24/07 01:58 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 541
Yorkshire
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Originally Posted By: rebecca53
Is there anyone else out there who is sick and tired of seeing Barbie-Borg women "heroes" with large chests accentuated by whatever clothing the men game designers give them? Clothing that is A) tighter than the men's, and B) made up of 50% less fabric? Women who are given the personalities of teenagers? When was the last time you found a woman hero in a game who actually had an adult personality? For that matter, when was the last time you actually saw a woman in a game who was older than 25?

If you know of any games without overtly sexist childlike portrayals of women, would you please post recommendations here?

You should try So Blonde when it comes out soon. Now on the surface it may look like exactly what you don't want from a game with the female heroine being a 17-year-old, slim, well-stacked, dumb blonde. However, we specifically took the stereotype as a way of exploring how a character can develop into something much more than how they begin.

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