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#263575 - 01/16/08 03:21 PM Dreamfall. Wow.
Tomer Offline
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Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 785
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
I assume this discussion was held here, at the time, many times. I however was not a part of it and feel I owe this marvelous game (is it really a game?) at least a thread smile.

I had just finished it.
While I find it hard to call it my favorite game ever (and I'll soon go in details with that), it had some elements... that I, as a player, always envisioned, or wished to see, in a game. A feel of realism that you get when you watch a moovie, or when yuo read a book.
Dreamfall had it. It brought me to some very, very powerful moments.
As for the gameplay... well, there isn't much, if you'd ask me. You're mostly wondering about, making errands from here to here. Can't say it was tiresom, but wasn't exactly challanging either. Easiest game I've ever played. And I'm used to hard, solid games, in which you need to sweat in order to advance smile.
Although this element did lack in Dreamfall, it did not bother me. The story was soooo compeling, so creative. The characters. The atmosphere.
The... ending.
I have never, ever seen such an ending.
Click to reveal..
The whole scene in the doll house. And what's coming after... almost wept.


To make tihs post relavent: I have understood there should be a sequal to Dreamfall. Is it official? Is there a date? Where do I find more info on it?
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#263582 - 01/16/08 03:39 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26890
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
Hi Tomer -- Funcom announced a few months ago that they'll be developing the sequel as a series of episodes, starting out as downloads. Since then we haven't heard any more about it. frown

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#263592 - 01/16/08 04:01 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
bigmamma1 Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 04/26/02
Posts: 841
Loc: florida
waveHello Tomer-
I recently finished Dreamfall and am now playing it again-It's so compelling and such an interesting story-I'm picking up on things tat I didn't see the first time.The ending is kinda sad though. I hope there is a sequel!
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#263601 - 01/16/08 04:16 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
chrissie Online   content
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Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4372
Loc: london uk
Hi Tomer, I loved the game also & the story within it was concluded nicely but did feel that a lot was left hanging. As I understand it's going to carry on in downloadable episodes? smile

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#263627 - 01/16/08 05:00 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: chrissie]
oldmariner Offline
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Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1314
There is a lot to dislike about Dreamfall. The pointless fighting scenes along with the seemingly endless stealth drove me to distraction. I also did not care for the presentation of Stark disintegrated into a "junkyard" of depression. TLJ's April certainly would not have recognized it. But I agree it is an outstanding game. The lack of puzzles bemoaned by many did not bother me at all. The story is the game and it is amazing. Where it lands on The List of great games will be a debate all it's own. It certainly is not The Longest journey which pacts a wallop and defines the wow factor. I regard TLJ as the best ever some will agree some won't But the countless endearing characters, the places, and well crafted story has never been equalled. Presently for me Dreamfall is barely hanging on to the top ten. We have a couple of Gabriel knights, Broken Swords ( at least one ), Syberia, maybe even Culpa Innata taking up space. Where does Dreamfall fit in? I am still uncertain, but it's great enough to be considered. Perhaps if Ragnar can
Click to reveal..
resurrect April, loose the action scenes,drop kian in a hole and answer the questions he left hanging.
I know that's a lot. Do that and we will have the Greatest Adventure series of all time.


Edited by BrownEyedTigre (01/16/08 05:23 PM)
Edit Reason: added spoiler tag

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#263637 - 01/16/08 05:14 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
RayBres Offline
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Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 165
Loc: Des Plaines, Illinois
I believe the above post by oldmariner contains a spoiler which should be covered up. smile
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#263645 - 01/16/08 05:23 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
sierramindy Offline
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Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 1853
Loc: Rockford, Illinois
Ah, Dreamfall, what a heartbreaking experience that was for yours truly. The first part with Zoe's story was so wonderful I was ready to nominate it to the Hall of Fame with all the award available. But then came April and I stayed with her and the early fighting scenes even though I wasn't happy with them, but then April entered a cave with the evil troll killing her and she could not fight back so never had a chance. Stealth was hard for me since I would move on the wrong pixel somehow and the game would hang up, April's feet would be moving but she was stuck in one place and I would have to go to a save. After a few saves and the times I got killed and had to start over (I think the game had an automatic save there) I got completely lost in the cave. The puzzle with those runes was way beyond me to add to my problems so I just gave up, feeling terribly letdown after the high of the beginning. I will never forget this game though. That's something anyway!
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#263646 - 01/16/08 05:23 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: RayBres]
oldmariner Offline
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Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1314
no comment


Edited by oldmariner (01/16/08 05:28 PM)

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#263647 - 01/16/08 05:23 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: RayBres]
BrownEyedTigre Offline
The Sassy Global Moderator PR Liaison
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Registered: 01/04/04
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THanks Ray...got it.

Ana wave
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#263648 - 01/16/08 05:24 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
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Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 34861
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: oldmariner
The lack of puzzles bemoaned by many did not bother me at all.

What bothered me a lot was how they substituted those annoying timed arcade "challenges" as door locks instead of using real puzzles. Always the same type too, no variety.

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#263837 - 01/17/08 05:21 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100]
Tomer Offline
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Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 785
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
There's no doubt about it - the puzzles in this game were very, very plane. They were not creative by any means, repetetive, and didn't make much sense.
But let's not forget that puzzles are there mostly to support the plot and story. They are a tool. And I've mentioned already I really like puzzles, good puzzles, but I've never ceased to believe that puzzles should be constructed for the sake of the story, and not for the sake of being a puzzle.
So, if the story is what Dreamfall does best - let it be. It hardly needed the puzzles to be excellent.
Who knows how this game would be preceived by adventurers, if it were to have good, solid puzzles.
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There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.

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#263887 - 01/17/08 08:43 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
looney4labs Offline
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Registered: 04/05/04
Posts: 41481
Loc: Alabama
Tomer, have you finished the game? I had to struggle to get used to the interface, but I ending up loving the game. wave
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#263906 - 01/17/08 09:26 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: looney4labs]
Tomer Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 785
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
Of course I finished it, I posted this thread right after, feeling overwhelmed, and I had to release my energies somewhere smile.
I got used to the interface in no time, I'm a quick learner.
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There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.

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#263908 - 01/17/08 09:28 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
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Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 34861
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Tomer
But let's not forget that puzzles are there mostly to support the plot and story.

I disagree. The puzzles and the story have to go together. Otherwise you have a movie with interruptions.

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#263971 - 01/17/08 12:01 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100]
Tomer Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 785
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
Well, what would you prefer? A movie with interruptions (Dreamfall?) or a series of puzzles, that connect nothing with nothing?
Even if you're not cracking your head up, and just leading your character from a place to another, plus choosing the forms of dialogs - I still call that gaming.
In my eyes, what gives games their special thing, for me, is the fact that they give you the strongest illusion of being a part of the story.
If there's no story, there's no game. At least, not an adventure game. Might as well play mine sweeper.

However, I do agree that a game with good puzzles, integrated with the plot, has a definite advantage. I still claim puzzles should support the story, and not vice versa. I don't see how that's not true.
If someone were to develop a game, I would want him to have a vision for a story, for things he wants to convey. Only afterwards, I think he needs to develop good, solid puzzles for the sake of the plot.
Of course you could have your "puzzle-game" thingy, which might be fun, but really, I can't even compare the two.
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#264071 - 01/17/08 03:37 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 34861
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Tomer
Well, what would you prefer? A movie with interruptions (Dreamfall?) or a series of puzzles, that connect nothing with nothing?

The puzzles. At least then it would be a game.

Quote:
Even if you're not cracking your head up, and just leading your character from a place to another, plus choosing the forms of dialogs - I still call that gaming.

I'd call that an interactive movie rather than an adventure game.

Quote:
In my eyes, what gives games their special thing, for me, is the fact that they give you the strongest illusion of being a part of the story.

I never felt I was "part of" the Dreamfall story. I felt I was "witnessing" it, just as I would witness a movie. Occasionally it would be interrupted by the need to fight something or do one of those stupid lock minigames.

Quote:
If there's no story, there's no game. At least, not an adventure game.

If there are no challenges, there's no game.
Dreamfall had "challenges" in the form of clumsy fights and lock find-and-click-the-symbol-real-fast minigames. There weren't many adventure type puzzles at all, and the ones there were were often flawed (e.g. - the sound that only played once that was supposed to be a vital clue for a puzzle).

Quote:
Might as well play mine sweeper.

So all puzzles look like minesweeper to you?

Quote:
However, I do agree that a game with good puzzles, integrated with the plot, has a definite advantage. I still claim puzzles should support the story, and not vice versa. I don't see how that's not true.

What differentiates it from a movie then?
Not just the puzzles, but the type of puzzles.

Quote:
If someone were to develop a game, I would want him to have a vision for a story, for things he wants to convey. Only afterwards, I think he needs to develop good, solid puzzles for the sake of the plot.

There's something to be said for developing them at the same time. You can have a rough outline for how the story goes, but once you get into the details of how the story will progress you should consider the puzzles at the same time. That's probably the only way you can get the pacing of the story correct.

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#264119 - 01/17/08 06:16 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100]
Tomer Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 785
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
Well, if you want it like that:

Originally Posted By: Jenny100
Originally Posted By: Tomer
Well, what would you prefer? A movie with interruptions (Dreamfall?) or a series of puzzles, that connect nothing with nothing?

The puzzles. At least then it would be a game.


Then perhaps our expectations from games are different. While you might be correct to call a series of puzzles a "game", it would still be a very empty game in my eyes. If all games were like that, I would really want to go to movies and read books only.

Quote:
Quote:
Even if you're not cracking your head up, and just leading your character from a place to another, plus choosing the forms of dialogs - I still call that gaming.

I'd call that an interactive movie rather than an adventure game.

Call it what you like. I don't believe there should be only one type of adventure game. It's like saying "that's not true art". It might not be a game by your definition, but it certainly is by mine.

Quote:
Quote:
In my eyes, what gives games their special thing, for me, is the fact that they give you the strongest illusion of being a part of the story.

I never felt I was "part of" the Dreamfall story. I felt I was "witnessing" it, just as I would witness a movie. Occasionally it would be interrupted by the need to fight something or do one of those stupid lock minigames.

When I said a "part of", I meant the fact that you control the pace and progress of events. You sympathize with characters, and lead them. Of course it's programmed, like every game, but the illusion is what matters.
Besides, you obviously speak for yourself since there are many who were really touched by this game.

Quote:
Quote:
If there's no story, there's no game. At least, not an adventure game.

If there are no challenges, there's no game.
Dreamfall had "challenges" in the form of clumsy fights and lock find-and-click-the-symbol-real-fast minigames. There weren't many adventure type puzzles at all, and the ones there were were often flawed (e.g. - the sound that only played once that was supposed to be a vital clue for a puzzle).


Again, if we're talking about a "game" in it's classic definition, I guess you have a point there. However, I still think that a game centered only around puzzles would be "fun", at best. Nothing close to experienced I have with games I consider good. It would take the essence of the word "adventure" away from adventure games.
btw, the music puzzle - you actually get to hear the creatures humming the 4 tunes all the time. This is how I solved it. They just never stopped humming the tunes until I opened the door.
Also, another beautiful element that I noticed is that these four tunes were an axis for the soundtrack of this area. It was very haunting.

Quote:
Quote:
Might as well play mine sweeper.

So all puzzles look like minesweeper to you?

Of course not. Most of them are related to a certain plot line.

Quote:
Quote:
However, I do agree that a game with good puzzles, integrated with the plot, has a definite advantage. I still claim puzzles should support the story, and not vice versa. I don't see how that's not true.

What differentiates it from a movie then?
Not just the puzzles, but the type of puzzles.


What diffrentiates it from a movie is the fact that you still lead your character in your pace, you still get an illusion (most of us did) that you're responsible for the plot's progress, and besides: there are some challanges in Dreamafall! That part in Victory Hotel... Oh my g*d! That was so frightning, and I failed a couple of times.
If a game were to have no challanges at all, I would find it a bit silly, but if it had a really good plot, I'd play it anyway.
I dunno, I might also enjoy playing a game filled with puzzles and nothing more. But I know that while one might make me excited, anticipated, frightened, anxious, curious, etc.... the other would only be fun. At best.

Quote:
Quote:
If someone were to develop a game, I would want him to have a vision for a story, for things he wants to convey. Only afterwards, I think he needs to develop good, solid puzzles for the sake of the plot.

There's something to be said for developing them at the same time. You can have a rough outline for how the story goes, but once you get into the details of how the story will progress you should consider the puzzles at the same time. That's probably the only way you can get the pacing of the story correct.


It definitely sounds ideal.
I'm only saying - if you'd tell me: Listen, I have two games; one has a really good critisizm about it's plot, story, elements, etc... while the other has some really good puzzles...
I would take the plot game smile.
The best puzzles I can think of, are always strongly related to the plot.
I really liked LSR in GK3, for example. One of the best puzzles I've ever seen.
Also, the spider chair in Spire, in Myst 4 (and Spire generally).

A puzzle with nothing behind it is so... empty.
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There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.

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#264151 - 01/17/08 07:39 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
JohnBoy Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 7742
Loc: Kentwood, Left my heart in New...
I may as well comment once and for all. Glad I played it (?) or whatever it was you did with the so called game. But it is at the bottom of my list as far as games go. Great story though!
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#264155 - 01/17/08 07:45 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: JohnBoy]
catsmom Offline
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Registered: 11/14/01
Posts: 2749
Loc: california
I'm playing the game right now(Thanks to a special person) and I'm enjoying it. I dont like the fighting but the storyline is interesting.
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#264253 - 01/17/08 09:55 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 34861
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Tomer
btw, the music puzzle - you actually get to hear the creatures humming the 4 tunes all the time. This is how I solved it. They just never stopped humming the tunes until I opened the door.


Click to reveal..
I'm talking about the sound you hear when you put the glowing egg on the weird machine. It was supposed to make a sound you had to match for the wall glyph puzzle. And it would not repeat unless you reloaded a save from before you used the egg.


The most annoying thing about it is that they must have had the ability to design better puzzles, but they apparently couldn't be bothered. TLJ had much better puzzles -- the alchemy puzzle, for example.

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#264300 - 01/18/08 12:38 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Volkana Offline
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Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 1868
Loc: Greece
Thanks a lot Tomer for your review of Dreamfall... I didn't want to play this game because the previous one(The Longest Journey) was for me a very boring game with a lot of walking and no story. After i read your review i definetely give it a try. At least it has puzzles...
It sounds promising...
thanks
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#264322 - 01/18/08 04:07 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Volkana]
Tomer Offline
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Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 785
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
Volkana.... the whole discussion is about the fact that Dreamfall doesn't really have puzzles :), but a wonderful story.

Jenny100, I was talking about that puzzle.
Click to reveal..
The same tunes that the glowing egg gives you, are hummed by the creature all the time. Check it out if you like
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#264324 - 01/18/08 04:14 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Volkana Offline
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Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 1868
Loc: Greece
It seems that i missed that part or i understand wrong...
I thought you said that there were puzzles but not challenging at all and very common...
Anyway...

Sorry... blush


Edited by VOLKANA (01/18/08 04:22 AM)
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#264419 - 01/18/08 08:21 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Volkana]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26890
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
I learn something new every day! I didn't realize that
Click to reveal..
the creatures hum!


A good reason to go back in Dreamfall and see what else I missed.

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#264457 - 01/18/08 09:45 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 34861
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Tomer
Jenny100, I was talking about that puzzle.
Click to reveal..
The same tunes that the glowing egg gives you, are hummed by the creature all the time. Check it out if you like


Click to reveal..
I don't remember any creature in that area that hummed in the area around the waterwheel and the cave. Was the creater in a different area?

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#264509 - 01/18/08 11:39 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100]
Tomer Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 785
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
Jenny and Becky:
Click to reveal..
When you start wondering around with Zoe in that purpulish underwater area, you keep hearing a distant "mmm mmm mmm mmm"... Be attentive. I play games with loud speakers, cause I like to create atmosphere (that's why I get scared so many times smile ). If you don't remember it, Jenny, you probably simply didn't notice it. It's distinct and in the background.
While you girls are at it, try and notice the soundtrack of that place - it has, as I've said, these magical 4 tunes, as a base for the whole piece. It's like, a repetetive part. Very beautiful.
Good luck on finding it!


Volkana, there are *some* challanges to it, but if anyone would come to me seeking a good puzzle game, I would definitelly not recommend it.
I'd recommend Myst, most of all. Especially 3, 4 and 2.

By the way, our discussion reminded me of the questions: what's more important in a song? The lyrics or the music?
In the case of a song, I know that one with good lyrics, but bad music, would probably not attract me in the first place, so I won't get to know it, while a song with good music but bad lyrics would attract me, only to discover it's empty smile.
I would call the "music", in this case, the puzzles and graphics.
And the lyrics - that's the story.
For me.


Edited by Tomer (01/18/08 11:42 AM)
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#264539 - 01/18/08 12:43 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
RayBres Offline
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Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 165
Loc: Des Plaines, Illinois
Ah, Dreamfall! If sales were proportional to the controversy a game creates, then Funcom would have made a fortune. The current dialog is reminiscent of threads that went on and on about the time the game was released. I don't think that even the recent Limbo of the Lost dust-up had as much controversy as this game generated.

Click to reveal..
While on the subject, oldmariner stated something earlier in this thread that I'd like to see. It would be another thread where people could think up ways to resurrect April in the next installment with the very important provision that the means would not be cheesy. As I see it, that will be Ragnar's biggest challenge if he chooses to do that at all. I won't start a new thread though because, in spite of what Becky thinks, I'm still not worthy.
yes
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#264562 - 01/18/08 01:36 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: RayBres]
Tomer Offline
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Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 785
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
Hmmm...
Click to reveal..
Who says April needs to be ressurected? Moreover, April could still be "alive", someplace else - not on Earth. That little girl in Dreamfall - she died, yet she was still alive somewhere. It's not impossible, and I didn't find it cheezy at all
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#264604 - 01/18/08 03:25 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
oldmariner Offline
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Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1314
Originally Posted By: Tomer
Hmmm...
Click to reveal..
Who says April needs to be ressurected? Moreover, April could still be "alive", someplace else - not on Earth. That little girl in Dreamfall - she died, yet she was still alive somewhere. It's not impossible, and I didn't find it cheezy at all


Click to reveal..
By cheezy I think the meaning was a way to bring April back that is believable. Not cheezy in the way she presumably died. However, there is nothing portrayed in the game that proved April perished. Two ways to look at this, Kian was having a life altering experience. He was questioning all that he believed and was gravitating toward accepting the rebel's position. From that we could accept that he only struck April with a "glancing" blow to mislead his antagonist. Or if we choose not to follow the redemption of kian path we can propose the blow did not pierce April's armor and she simply swam away under water.

My comment about April's resurrection was not about bringing her back from the dead. It was redeeming her spirit and creating for her a return to a positive view of life. The sparkle in this young woman and the love of life she had in game one was taken in this episode. I don't doubt for a moment April lives. It's my desire that Ragnar brings back someone close to the old April. I expected her to grow but turning her into a bitter unloving warrior is the most unforgivable sin created by Dreamfall

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#264688 - 01/18/08 07:08 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
sierramindy Offline
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Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 1853
Loc: Rockford, Illinois
I agree with you oldmariner, that the change in April was unforgivable, but since the name of the game is Dreamfall maybe Zoe dreamed the part where April starts and Zoe leaves. She was getting those strange messages about someone needing help and so she had a nightmare or whatever. I didn't finish the game so I have no idea what the ending was like. Maybe in a sequel Zoe would wake up and actually find our real April and make everybody happy. Oh well, I can dream too, can't I?
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#264734 - 01/18/08 08:54 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy]
BubbaJake Offline
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Registered: 06/06/07
Posts: 749
Loc: Illinois
I know I wasn't invited here, but it is an open forum. I liked DreamFall better the second time around. I kept wanting April and the Borderhouse, and in the end I didn't like her at all when she did show up. I think I did understand why she had changed. She had grown up and become very cynical. In her situation, who wouldn't be, I guess. I liked and understood it (especially the lock puzzles) WAY better than Culpa Innata, which I am currently replaying, but still confused about.
Give me Syberia, Still Life or better yet, a good old Tex Murphy game any day.

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#264821 - 01/19/08 03:55 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy]
Tomer Offline
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Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 785
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
The way it goes in Dreamfall, I guess the ressurection will be somthing like:
Click to reveal..

Kian: April, you're alive, how can this be?!?
April: I don't know. I just am.
Kian: White kin, how can she be alive? I saw her dying!!
White kin: What she is, is what she were, is what she would be, thus she is a part of the storytime, and therefore, she is.
Kian: *sigh*
smile
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#265034 - 01/19/08 11:42 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
looney4labs Offline
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Don't you think
Click to reveal..
April has to be alive? I assumed she is the old lady who is telling the tale in TLJ.
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#265059 - 01/19/08 12:13 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: looney4labs]
misa Offline
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I am pretty sure I read this elsewhere:

Click to reveal..
The old lady in TLJ is "Lady Alvane" which is the last name of Kian. But I also remember reading either here or another forum that in one of the files on the game (someone decompiled it I think), "Lady Alvane" is referred to as "Old April".

Also we didn't actually see April die. We saw her get injured and fall in the water.


As for Dreamfall, I liked TLJ better as far as story, gameplay and characters. I really didn't feel that attached to Zoe or anyone else in Dreamfall except maybe Wonkers! razz Having said that, I will play the the new episodes whenever they come out. I'm like that though, I'll play every game in a series even if the subsequent games don't pull me in as the first one(s).

Like others, I felt it to be more of an interactive movie, sort of like how Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy is considered an interactive movie.

My final thought on this is that everyone likes different things in games. Some like the story better than the puzzles, some like puzzles better than the story. I like a good balance of the two but it really depends on the game as a whole for me.


Edited by misa (01/19/08 12:16 PM)

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#265105 - 01/19/08 01:41 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: looney4labs]
chrissie Online   content
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Hi looney4labs, I thought exactly the same thing! smile

I replayed the Longest Journey after I finished Dreamfall - but even though Dreamfall, as a sequel, played so differently I did like it almost as much! I definitely would have included it as a recommendation on Flotsam's list for that year if it had not been for the more awkward interface.

There seems to be a lot of disappointment at the change in April's character in Dreamfall - but for the character there has been some time gone by between the ending of TLJ & her appearance in Dreamfall - I for one would love to know what happened to her inbetween! smile

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#265113 - 01/19/08 01:58 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: chrissie]
Jenny100 Offline
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I think there was also disappointment that April wasn't the "hero" in Dreamfall. People wanted to see her story continue, not jump years ahead to where she's only a side character, and a cynical one at that.

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#265132 - 01/19/08 02:22 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100]
sierramindy Offline
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What about those strange messages that Zoe was getting on that screen showing that someone needed help of some kind? Was that April? What happened to Zoe at the end of Dreamfall since I never got that far? Everything is about April since this was supposed to be a sequel and I understand that part of it, but still Zoe has some connection now, but I don't know what it is. I feel like it was almost 2 games cobbled together! Which is very cynical, I know, but that's the way the game comes across to me. Seems my reactions never follow the crowd.
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#265222 - 01/19/08 05:05 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy]
oldmariner Offline
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Originally Posted By: sierramindy
What about those strange messages that Zoe was
Click to reveal..
getting on that screen showing that someone needed help of some kind? Was that April? What happened to Zoe at the end of Dreamfall since I never got that far? Everything is about April since this was supposed to be a sequel and I understand that part of it, but still Zoe has some connection now, but I don't know what it is. I feel like it was almost 2 games cobbled together! Which is very cynical, I know, but that's the way the game comes across to me. Seems my reactions never follow the crowd.


This has got to be all spoiler. You did not finish the game? Read at your own risk.

[spoiler]The doctor who supervised the creation and killing of the little girl turns out to be Zoe's mother. At the end of the game, (Editorial) the "mother" (if you could possibly call her that. We have some choice names for fathers who abuse their children well they can be applied to this "mother".) The doctor mother puts Zoe into a coma presumably so zoe can talk the little girl into letting go and moving on. She does not tell Zoe but her plan appears to be designed to get rid of Zoe as well. Zoe ends up in a coma the girl agrees to move on, end of game


We can only speculate but------

Click to reveal..
Why was the little girl wanting to "Save April" who knows? Perhaps she knows April is the only one who can defeat the sinister plot. It seems the child and zoe are sisters of a sort, same mother so to speak. The child tried to get Zoe to save April. The "mother" tried to do away with Zoe and the child. As Misa pointed out the story teller is Lady Alvane. Same last name as Kian. Ah does the warrior unite with April? Well it has been strongly suggested that April is Lady Alvane, that is one way to get there. Though I'd rather see April end up with Charlie. Who knows, lots of possibilities.
[/spoiler]

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#265340 - 01/19/08 10:44 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
sierramindy Offline
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Thanks, oldmariner,
I really was curious about Zoe, since she was the only one I cared about.

Click to reveal..
I remember now about her being put to sleep (well, I thought it was sleep so she could enter the dreamfall world or something like that) but coma works too. The child, if they had the same mother, would be a half-sister to Zoe. If Zoe is in a coma there is the chance she will come out of it in the next game if it is ever made. That's sort of comforting!


Since I'm not about to ever play the game again as I no longer even have it, I am very grateful that you took the time to fill me in on what happened. It's odd, but I feel better about the game now that you have explained about Zoe. The rest I don't care about as I never got involved with that part of the game and I don't understand all the fine points about the story.
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#265393 - 01/20/08 05:41 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy]
Tomer Offline
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oldmariner, you're forgetting something:
Click to reveal..
In the end, the little girl (hope) answers why she's been trying to make you save April Rian. She says the "White Lady" told her to, and that she's been there just before you did. I've always assumed that's the white kin, but I could be mistaken. Could be lady Alvane, as far as I know.

Another thing that really bothered me, is that the girl says that April has indeed been saved. Zoe wonders, since she saw her die (or injured). So, some would say her death was her saving.
But - what did Zoe do to cause her death? She obviously had no visible effect on April's life - April would have gone through the same route (as far as I can tell), with or without Zoe interffering with her life. So, how come Zoe saved her?!
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#265414 - 01/20/08 06:53 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Becky Offline
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Tomer -- I've often wondered that myself.
Click to reveal..
The only effect Zoe seems to have had on that last sequence in the Rebel's swamp home is to slow down April's two friends near the end -- they had to put Zoe to sleep so that she would leave the world and wouldn't be captured. Dealing with Zoe slowed down the friends' retreat. Could that have somehow saved April?

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#265630 - 01/20/08 12:21 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
oldmariner Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tomer
oldmariner, you're forgetting something:
Click to reveal..
In the end, the little girl (hope) answers why she's been trying to make you save April Rian. She says the "White Lady" told her to, and that she's been there just before you did. I've always assumed that's the white kin, but I could be mistaken. Could be lady Alvane, as far as I know.

Another thing that really bothered me, is that the girl says that April has indeed been saved. Zoe wonders, since she saw her die (or injured). So, some would say her death was her saving.
But - what did Zoe do to cause her death? She obviously had no visible effect on April's life - April would have gone through the same route (as far as I can tell), with or without Zoe interffering with her life. So, how come Zoe saved her?!


Yes it is true I forgot that little detail. Here is a bit of theory to address what you ask.

Click to reveal..
Remember in game one April learned how to breathe under water. Also this cliff hanger, hero falling into (something) during an attack, has been used endlessly in movie after movie. Nothing new here as there is nothing conclusive.

I believe the White kin is the white lady. She would have the "powers" to communicate with Faith. In more than one place in the game the White Dragon was referred to as the White Lady. How did Zoe save April? Here is a plot path that answers that question.

Well, here's my theory on why April's alive. Faith indicates that Zoe did indeed save April. Even though it seems that April was killed. However, as we know that almost everything in this story has a deeper meaning. What needed to be saved was April's faith. It comes back to my earlier statement about April needed to be resurrected. She had lost her faith, and it was that faith that Faith was telling Zoe to save.

A symptom of this lost faith was the loss of April's shifting abilities. If I am correct in assuming that it is April's faith that needed to be saved, and that Zoe saved it. She would have regained her shifting powers. Therefore, April shifted after being stabbed. Remember in T.L.J April needed to be stressed to shift. She shifted to who knows where, but just that idea that she shifted means that she's not dead. I won't ever forgive the writers if this in fact was the end of April. Perhaps the best game character ever. So T.L.J 3 will determine if Dreamfall was a dud or not.


Just a few ideas offered to further the speculation. You gotta admit there are many outs for the story writers here.

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#265680 - 01/20/08 01:42 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
sierramindy Offline
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Hmm, more going on here than I ever thought about. I'm character oriented, not plot oriented, so I missed a lot of the storyline without even noticing that fact, or caring really. Zoe left when April appeared as a main character and since I couldn't deal with April, I quit, my interest was gone. But reading this thread is very interesting because I'm interested in how other gamers see this game and the characters in it.
But what about the story writers? Are there any out there who really care enough to go on with the story? It is easy to guess at different ways the plot could go, but not necessarily all that easy to sit down and actually work it out in detail. That takes not only talent but some sort of inner vision or belief in the story itself, a commitment maybe, whatever. So, gamers might be ready for more, but are the writers? Time alone will tell, I reckon.
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#265700 - 01/20/08 02:30 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy]
oldmariner Offline
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I can answer that to a point. Ragnar Tornquist, the creator of the story is keeping quiet in regard to what happened. In interviews he has said the complete story is written. The plan is to release the rest in downloaded chapters. Something like Sam and Max I surmise. He has also stated that in the worst case he would release it in story format if the game did not come to be. He was quoted as saying we will not have to wait years either.

Considering the game is story/character driven and that it is an outstanding achievement in story telling we can assume Tornquist has worked out more surprises for us. Look at the product to date, the two games taken together are highly developed. I or the collective "we" may not like the direction it takes but the promise is that the story is written. Tornquist has an online blog and he answers reader's questions. So we can suppose he hears people's ideas. Not to say he will incorporate them but we can be certain he is aware of what people think and want. As an aside in his blog he commented that many people assumed that Stark was modeled after LA. He stated it is not, he was thinking Seattle/Vancouver while designing Stark. He also said Stark fared much better than Europe in regard to being depressed. I did not see where that was illustrated in DreamFall but that was his comment.

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#265722 - 01/20/08 03:41 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
Tomer Offline
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Registered: 06/12/07
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Becky:
Click to reveal..
I don't see how slowing down April's companions indeed influenced somehow. It's kinda random smile. Don't have a better idea though.


Oldmariner:
Click to reveal..
What you said, about April being stressed and then shifting - that's probably the best theory I've read so far. What I still didn't get from you, is how Zoe's connected to all of that? What influence did Zoe have on April? April didn't get injured because of Zoe...


Oh, what I write is directed for everybody of course, but it's a response to what these people said smile.
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#265758 - 01/20/08 04:36 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
oldmariner Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tomer
Becky:
Click to reveal..
I don't see how slowing down April's companions indeed influenced somehow. It's kinda random smile. Don't have a better idea though.


Oldmariner:
Click to reveal..
What you said, about April being stressed and then shifting - that's probably the best theory I've read so far. What I still didn't get from you, is how Zoe's connected to all of that? What influence did Zoe have on April? April didn't get injured because of Zoe...


Oh, what I write is directed for everybody of course, but it's a response to what these people said smile.


Tomer
I don't have definitive answers only speculation

Click to reveal..
Becky already pointed out that Zoe appeared to have no effect on April in that final scene. Slowing down her friends may have been it but not likely the whole answer. So how did Zoe save April? Staying with the notion that it was April's spirit that needed saving perhaps it was Zoe's presence that did the trick. April's friends became critical when she turned Zoe down. Several people told April she was wrong. That may very well have planted the seed that got her thinking. Especially the woman who betrayed her just before the final confrontation.

There are far too many references in both games to allow anyone to think April's role has ended. That cliffhanger scene was far too unoriginal to be her demise. Many characters spoke of things yet to be done by April that have not taken place, (Banda, Guardian, Lady A, Kin) and so on. Kian and the Lady having the same last name, the kin calling April daughter, Zoe and Faith being sisters, Crow being with Lady A strongly suggest she is April. Far too many messages to simply write off.

What specifically did Zoe do? I don't think it was anything related to the final scene. Likely it was simply showing up in Arcadia and engaging April. What would be neat is April shifting directly to Charlie's bar in Stark landing on the sofa.

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#265802 - 01/20/08 05:57 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
sierramindy Offline
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Ragnar Tornquist may know the complete story, but at this point in time, I'm not sure anyone else does. He doesn't seem to know much about the plans for the game coming out in chapter form. It sounds like that is out of his hands and he might settle for releasing it in story format if the game doesn't work out. Maybe his storyline is too complicated for a game, especially one in short episodes. I do hope that the game does get made since so many have such a strong interest in it, but for myself I don't care all that much. They lost me when they added all those action shenanigans to the game.
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#265832 - 01/20/08 07:11 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy]
Tomer Offline
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Why care so much for the action parts, sierramindy? Most of them can be avoided, there are about 2 of them that are a must, and those are really easy.
I don't think you need to give up on a game simply because it has an element you don't relate to much. Believe me, I didn't relate to the combat sequences either. The story + characters were simply too good, however, for me to give up on it smile.

oldmariner:
Click to reveal..
I thought about that - in Dreamfall, Crow decided to be Zoe's sidekick, and to leave April after she's been selfish to Zoe. If I'm not mistaken, the game ends when Crow is "officialy" Zoe's sidekick. Could that bring up the possiblity that, somehow, Zoe is lady Alvane, and not April? (I'm relaying on the fact that we see crow + old lady at the end of TLJ 1).
About Zoe affecting April's "spirit"... well, it could be, but I have to say it's really vauge if that's the case. April has shown hardly any sign of remorse or regret, not until the last second.
It could be that April regained faith in some form, right before she got stabbed, seeing the Azadi apostle, Alvane, was trying to defend her. Then she was saved. But saying that Zoe affected her - it's just hard to buy it since you see that April keeps thinking the same things, acting the same way, until the minute she dies. Even in her last conversation with Alvane (the apostle), she's still the cynical April.
It's really intruiging. I hope there's a good, logical, profound explenation for Zoe just standing there on the horizon, and somehow affecting April. I really do hope we're not the only ones who'r doing the thinking *cough*ragnartornquist*cough*.

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#265852 - 01/20/08 07:52 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Darleen03 Offline
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Registered: 12/13/03
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This subject of the game Dreamfall has came up many times
since its release....

I for one was very disappointed with the game....
I was expecting something else entirely...

This game as beautiful as it was....Has no bearing on what we all expected..

My Opinion...
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#265928 - 01/20/08 10:25 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Darleen03]
oldmariner Offline
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I agree with you Darleen I was very disappointed in this game for many reasons. It is not on my top ten list or if it is, then barely. I am replaying the games I like best and with every play Dreamfall drops a notch.

The obverse is true with T.L.J-1 For me everything else gets measured against it and so far nothing quite gets there.

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#266305 - 01/21/08 12:46 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
RayBres Offline
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Here's a lot of speculation about our favorite girl. If you haven't played Dreamfall, don't read this!

Click to reveal..
OK, I'll weigh in with some ideas about how to resurrect April and let the rest of you decide how high on the "cheesy" scale they are.

One thing I'll make clear at the start is that I'm not in to metaphysical or metaphorical meanings of the term "save April" that occurs in Dreamfall. It may well be so, but that's not the way my thinking goes on the subject. The phrase, to me, means that the flesh-and-blood April is saved in a flesh-and-blood
way, even if it involves magic.

Let's also be clear on what happened. When playing Dreamfall one can at any point hit the pause key and stop the game where it is. Now, when they're all on the pier Varmon (the vermin!) gives Kian a last chance to save himself by telling him to kill April and we're then presented with four choices: yes, no, stall, bargain. I played each of these through and they all result in the same outcome: Kian doesn't do it and Varmon orders one of the soldiers to "Kill her!" and the soldier thrusts his pike into her. (By the way, the only difference in any of these options is in the dialog exchanges and, let me tell you, April
really has a smart mouth for someone in her position!). Anyway, I stopped the action repeatedly when the pike was thrust and a couple of times I got a pretty good picture of what happened. The blade is very long and thin, like a big razor blade, and it enters April about four inches to the right of her navel (i.e., her right side) and penetrates deeply enough so that there is some chance it partially went all the way through. The incision
starts about even with the navel and goes upward maybe a foot. That means multiple organ damage and massive internal bleeding. At that point April grabs her side, says "Oh" and tumbles back into the water.

That's what she has to be saved from. Although under stress she might be able to regain her shifting ability, I don't believe any of the suggestions that have been made about her shifting to an emergency room in Stark where she could be saved. I'm not medical, but I really don't think medical science is ever going
to advance to the point where someone who has been cut like that could be saved. Besides, what would that have to do with Zoe? Remember, we have to be able to account for why Zoe saves her. So, this would be too high on the cheesy scale for me.

OK, a better possibility is that April reaches the end of the pier, turns, and sees Zoe on the adjacent pier a ways over and realizes that she (April) is now in mortal danger (she knows that Zoe's mission is to save her), which is not what April was expecting when she went to the pier at Na'ane's urging. So, while
talking to Kian she moves some defensive apparatus into her midsection and isn't really stabbed, although it appears she is. It's possible, but I'd find such a resolution to be very cheesy indeed.

The only other way I can come up with right now is as follows. Na'ane is filled with despair over the betrayal she has committed, and she's in a position where she can see what's going on. She's reasonably expecting that April isn't going to be killed on the spot, because she knows that the people in power will want to make a public show of their prisoner and execute her publicly. I say that this is reasonable and Na'ane or anyone else would know this because it's in the interest of the authorities to do it this way. (April is the Scorpion
and is number one on the Azadi hit list; her role as the most troublesome guerilla leader is rather similar to the one played by Mel Gibson in Braveheart and, you'll recall, they made sure to make his execution public.)

However, Na'ane then notices Zoe on the pier across the way and this makes her (Na'ane) realize that April is in mortal danger right now, contrary to expectations. This actually gives Na'ane hope that she can do something at the present moment and she moves near the fatal pier where April is. When April falls into he water, Na'ane wades out and grabs her and then uses her magical power of last resort: she transfers April's wound to herself. This is a rather suicidal or self-sacrificial magical power, to say the last. So, April lives and Na'ane dies.

The outcome is then that April's faith is restored because she knows that there are forces working which do indeed consider her to be of high importance, so much so that they'd go to these lengths to save her. (As for what Gordon told April earlier, I discount that because I trust Gordon about as far as I can throw him). Also, in the future April would have an extreme advantage over the Azadi because they would all think that she was dead! She could then freely penetrate as much as possible into the Azadi power structure as she needed to in order to thwart their plans. She could, for example, take the place of the ambassador in the tower.

So, that's where I can take it right now. As I said above, I'll leave it to the rest of you to judge how cheesy this is. Especially the awesome Becky. You know, Becky, if you're reading this, I was always aware of your Name the Game thread (I'm a veteran lurker) but never played due to strong feelings of being chicken. I am amazed that you were able to do so much of that for so long. My compliments.



Edited by RayBres (01/21/08 08:29 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling, of course
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#266336 - 01/21/08 01:52 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: RayBres]
sierramindy Offline
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Hi RayBres,
Very interesting storyline that you wrote, I certainly like it, makes me feel as though April will get back to being her old self with the shifting power or whatever it is. Then everyone who was disappointed by Dreamfall can forget it. Now that you have saved April, how about Zoe? I liked her.
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#266372 - 01/21/08 02:38 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Lagavulin Offline
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Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 594
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Finally I've been able to play this game. I say finally, not because I've really been keen to play this game "game wise", no because I have not been able "Specs wise".
smashpcUpgraded my old 64MB Video card and loaded more RAM.

Yesterday evening I saw the credits for Dreamfall fade away.

My thoughts: thinkAfter the previous game I did not have high expectations on this one. Dreamfall had the graphics and the story but besides that nothing more. I would like to call Dreamfall an Adventure Interactive Movie. On the other hand the story and how it was told managed to keep me interested all the way. This is one of the extremly rare adv games with total lack of challenge, that I actually grade 4/5 thumbsup. (I prefere more challenges) headscratch

Cheers
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#266534 - 01/21/08 07:56 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Lagavulin]
sierramindy Offline
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I think I have to agree that Dreamfall had a lack of challenges. Fighting and sneaking are boring, not challenges. Even if I can't do them, so there.
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#266537 - 01/21/08 08:03 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy]
RayBres Offline
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I liked Zoe too, sierramindy, but my problem there is that I've got, at best, a very confused understanding of what her situation is at the end and really don't know how to proceed.
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#266542 - 01/21/08 08:10 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy]
looney4labs Offline
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Ray, I like your last scenario.

I too thought it was almost like an interactive movie, but as I'm a "story" type person that was fine with me. I even managed to enjoy the sneaking (at least when it was logical). puppy
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#266560 - 01/21/08 08:49 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Duststorm Offline
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Registered: 03/26/02
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Loc: South Lake Stevens,WA.

Just curious. Am I wrong in thinking that producers of adventure games would be better served financially if they did not require computer specs so high that it rules out the majority of users from playing a game? I wonder how many of us don't have or are border line computer owners that are needed to play this game.

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#266568 - 01/21/08 09:09 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Duststorm]
oldmariner Offline
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Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1314
I'm all speculated out!

Ray, I agree with Sierra on your plot idea. But I will add CHEEZY is acceptable to me if I get what I want in the next game. I don't get what I want I won't be playing.

Loony, I'm with you, it's story and characters for me. I don't care about puzzles and at times less is better.

Dust, An interesting point. I suspect it began with FPS where the high res and action are supreme. Kind of like "my graphics" are better than yours. I ask how many ways do you need to find to kill something? Those little pacman dots got boring quick. Are there any FPS/Action games circa 1990 that get the high props accorded to low res Gabriel Knight 1? So no story, no developed characters requires constant upgrade in high res etc. Just my humble opinion. Adventure games are brought kicking and screaming into that. Though I will say Dreamfall was a pleasure to look at it was still a lesser game than TLJ. Yes I too enjoy the better graphics but I could live with the quality of TLJ, BS1. Keep the good stories and characters worry less about high res. But that's not how the corporate world works. It ties into another opinion of mine about high def TV, who cares there is too little on to pay 1000's to watch.


Edited by oldmariner (01/21/08 09:12 PM)

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#266599 - 01/21/08 11:27 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
Becky Offline
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Interesting ideas, RayBres! :save:

Maybe if developers create a game with high system specs, that ensures that people keep playing the game for years as they gradually upgrade their computers? laugh There seem to be a lot of gamers who have just played this game.

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#267089 - 01/22/08 06:01 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Becky]
RayBres Offline
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I've always thought that GK3 tanked in the marketplace because of too-high specs for its day (1999). I had a pretty up-to-date computer back then and really had a difficult time getting through the game because of graphics difficulties. I wasn't able to play it really well until I got my next computer.
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#269052 - 01/26/08 11:21 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
gkgame Offline
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I just finished playing Dreamfall last night and feel compelled to join in this discussion and throw in my two cents...for what it's worth.

I really enjoyed Dreamfall, not as much as it being a "game" but a story. It had a fantastic storyline and great characters. The depth of the story and the atmosphere, the locations, everything was amazing.

That said, I had some issues with the game:
* I never did get a firm handle on the controls. I played with a Sidewinder gamepad and it was difficult to move the characters around. Poor Zoe looked like she was drunk half the time, zig and zagging around. She never could walk a straight line.
* I could never find a happy medium with the camera angles either.
* While I didn't mind the battle sequences, I would have preferred to do without.
* The game needed more puzzles.

I prefer a more traditional point and click adventure game, filled with interesting places to explore, lots of places to click, lots of puzzles to solve, fun characters and depth to the storyline. But I enjoyed this game immensely. It was different, unique and terribly interesting. I can't wait for the sequels. The game left so many unanswered questions...

Gail

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#269160 - 01/26/08 03:00 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: gkgame]
Tomer Offline
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Do you guys think the next game will feel similar, gaming-wise? I really hope they take heart to all of the fans' requests and make it much harder, with a bit less action, and more puzzles and thinking.
Other than that - I want everything to remain just the same - a deep intruiging story and characters with 3-dimentional depth!
Oh, it would also be nice to include some cut-scenes in improved graphics, like in Still Life and many other games. They're really fun to watch and serve as a "treat" for solving something, or progressing a lot.
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#269222 - 01/26/08 05:51 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
gkgame Offline
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Tomer -- I hope you're right. I hope the developers do take these suggestions to heart. I can't wait to see.

Oh and Becky...I did just play Dreamfall after getting a faster laptop with a better graphics card. I didn't even try buying the game when it came out because I knew it would never run on my old machine. I found the game at Gamestop a couple of months ago for $9.99. It worked great with the faster computer.

I just hope they don't keep increasing the specs with future adventure games. I won't be buying a new system anytime in the near future. I just caught up! lol

Gail

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#269236 - 01/26/08 06:24 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: gkgame]
Becky Offline
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It's nice to catch up, isn't it?

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#311468 - 04/16/08 12:20 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100]
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I just finished Dreamfall and I'm confused. Presumably future games will explain the ending.
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#311747 - 04/16/08 01:03 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: GuybrushThreepwood]
Syndalee Offline
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I only played about half of this game. I got tired of trying to control character movements. I could not get through the fight sequences. One of the reasons I like point and click games is that because of neck/back injuries my hands do not always do what I want them to. So, there I am trying to do a fight scene and my hands spasm; I'm trying to get the character to move using the controls and, again, my hands spasm.
I agree that the game is beautiful, but I simply could not play. Waste of money.
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#311751 - 04/16/08 01:18 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Syndalee]
chrissie Online   content
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Hi Syndalee, I'm sorry that you were unable to finish the game through injury. I'm not sure whether this may help but the game is gamepad compatible - also perhaps if you posted on hints you may be able to get save games to get you past the action parts. smile

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#335200 - 05/28/08 04:42 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: chrissie]
Kickaha Offline
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May be useful may not be (I've yet to play "Dreamfall" myself) but there was a recent post on Quandary about better handling the controls in "Dreamfall" here.

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#335282 - 05/28/08 06:54 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Kickaha]
orchgamer Offline
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My two cents into the discussion:

I agree completely that the game has its flaws, although it is among my current favorites, possibly my top 10. Yes, the puzzles are too easy, and because of this, it progressed very quickly and lost some of the power an epic story usually conveys. I was, however, completely engrossed by the game, and it made up for me in emotional, intellectual, and artful storytelling (for an adventure game), what it lost in actual game play.

I have always been bewildered by individuals who state they like to just explore during a game and look at the scenery. I can understand it but have personally rarely felt that way. Dreamfall made me understand the desire to just explore in a game. When most adventure games have clearly smaller budgets than more mainstream games, I am very thankful that someone took the time to make such a beautiful and detailed environment.

Most importantly to me, is that I feel that the authors truly care about their story and tell it with passion. If want you want to find symbolism in this game, it is there everywhere. If you want a clear "conflict and resolution (or in this case cliffhanger)," you have three to enjoy with the different main characters. Both good and evil in this game are developed and complex in this game. Many characters are so developed, and at times flawed, that I want to witness their development. Want to discuss racial divides, religious disputes, troubled youth, loss of individual direction, faith, desire for omnipotence, or success, choosing between family and career? They are all there.

It is very interesting to me to read this thread and see all of the involved discussion, pro and con, about the game. The fact that a "flawed" game can elicit such interest is a tribute to its excellence.

btw, am I the only one who liked the Kian sections of the game? I was waiting for his story and "conversion" to turn sour and go a little "over the top," but I enjoyed it and am eager to play more. wave

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#335508 - 05/29/08 08:54 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Syndalee]
mcc Offline
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I think the game is well worth playing even if you have to ask for saved games, I am not very coordinated, also tone deaf and when playing some games I need help but don't give up if otherwise I like the game.

I also had problems with the controls and had to change the default controls to avoid getting frustrated every time I needed to run or do something in a hurry.

I like some fighting with the option of sneaking, I am not too good at fighting but I only found one fight too tough (against the guy in the “hotel”) and sneaking him was not easy either because it had to be carefully timed. However, I think that when an Adventure game has fighting, timed or sound puzzles, the box somehow should warn the buyers.

I enjoyed the first lock puzzles but after a couple they started to be too repetitive and long.

I liked the game even when not as much as TLJ until ...

Click to reveal..
...the end, I don’t like sad endings. I am assuming (wishful thinking really) April, who didn’t looked the same person as in TLJ (physically or mentally) shifted to the other world as consequence of the shock of being “killed” and somebody saved her there or something like RayBress mentions happens. Also, of course, that Zoe comes out of the comma.


I also hope the next "chapter" comes soon, part of my disappointment was due to the long wait that raised my expectations.
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#336121 - 05/30/08 01:12 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100]
Benedict Offline
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I just finished Dreamfall and it gave me mixed feelings.
The graphics was pretty, the story was interesting, the characters are memorable, yes. With a wireless Xbox controller for windows installed I can play the game in comfort while sitting on my bed with a walkthough on my pillow. Sneaking and Fighting segments were acceptable. I also do not mind the lengthy expositions that make the game appear to me more like a movie than a game. However there is still much I dislike about Dreamfall...

First, I worry that Ragnar has painted himself into a corner after all the rollercoasters that he put the characters through in the second game and that no amount of plausible plot tweaking could save the story. With the episodes coming, the story could continue to go downhill and we will have all kinds of continuity errors and unexplained events that we have encountered in Dreamfall and TLJ1.

Secondly, the weak opening. I tried to share the game with a close friend but I totally lost him after the lengthy Brian Westhouse monologue and the confusing Undreaming gets Brian in the storytime weird scenario (followed by the slightly less confusing scene with the lengthy Zoe monologue where she is in a coma.) The really confusing begining about Brian Westhouse was never explained at all even by the end of the game even though Brian appears in the middle of the game. I wonder if Ragnar had any idea where this was going or Funcom simply decided to go ahead to release this whole mess without any change because of way too much budget spent animating and recording audio for the opening.

Thirdly my fave peeve about the game was the numerous game loading interludes. Just getting from Zoe's house to the gym we have at least 3 such interludes. It is all shoddy programming to me. And what about the install program running whenever autorun detects the DVD in my drive, and that no patch has been put up by Funcom over two years? Guess what Funcom is doing now? They seem to be pooling resources to work on Age of Conan, some online action rpg I guess.

In conclusion I'm sorry to say that the future of this great game just simply looks too bleak to me. Maybe we should start bugging Ragnar on his blog. I don't want this game to die quietly after years of anticipation like GK3 or Tex Murphy Overseer did. I would feel really cheated if this happens.

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#336149 - 05/30/08 02:28 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Benedict]
Becky Offline
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Hi Benedict -- I agree with you about the frequent load screens. I suspect this was due to planning the game from the beginning to release on both the PC and the Xbox, but that didn't make me like those load screens any better.

I want to see the story (actually, stories) resolved in Dreamfall Chronicles too. I trust Mr. Tornquist as a writer and storyteller -- I think he's one of the best in gaming. I don't think he's painted himself into a corner. My only fear is that the success of Conan will put Dreamfall Chronicles on a back shelf so that it never does get produced.

How much is Dreamfall selling for these days? Do you feel that you got your money's worth?

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#336235 - 05/30/08 05:24 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Becky]
Tomer Offline
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I definitely do, but that's rather obvious cause I started this thread smile
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#336464 - 05/31/08 07:08 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Taurnil Offline
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Dreamfall really haunted me. What an excellent game! Magic, magic, magic. Anxious to see the third part!
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#337647 - 06/02/08 10:47 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Taurnil]
Becky Offline
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More, very recent information here on Ragnar Tornquist's blog.

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#337778 - 06/02/08 02:48 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Becky]
RayBres Offline
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I read the stuff on his blog and all he says is that sequels to Dreamfall (before and after!) are on the back burner and he doesn't know when they'll come out. What a bulletin that is!

One question I'd like to raise relates to just who Ragnar is in the Funcom power structure. I don't know. Perhaps someone here would have some info on that. For example, is he high up enough to influence policy, or is he "just" an employee? Also, does anyone know what The Secret World is?

It turns out that all this is just an excuse anyway to make my 100th post. I didn't think it would ever happen, but now I'm somebody. yes
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#337789 - 06/02/08 03:06 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: RayBres]
LindaMarion Offline
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Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
Im very far fom expert but i think ragnar is the leader of the whole funcom co. and the developer of tlj and dreamfall

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#337799 - 06/02/08 03:16 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: LindaMarion]
MaG Offline
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This is what Wikipedia says about Ragnar Tornquist.

bravo Raybres! More, more.

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#337812 - 06/02/08 03:40 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: MaG]
Becky Offline
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RayBres -- and here I'm reading entire future plots into those words (and what's said later in the response section). lol

Okay, entire future plots is a bit of an exaggeration.

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#337886 - 06/02/08 06:03 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Becky]
Jenny100 Offline
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Registered: 10/24/00
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From that Wiki article:
Quote:
Tørnquist is credited with popularizing the term "modern adventure", a term used to describe contemporary adventure game design that began with games such as The Longest Journey, Broken Sword, and Syberia. He felt that a new term was needed to describe this new generation of adventure games since "the classic point-and-click 'graphical adventure' is dead... The point of the 'modern adventure' [...] is to bring adventure gaming back into the mainstream, and to use technology and gameplay advances to bring the genre forward into the 'next generation'."[1]

I don't think the Wikipedia article is correct in what they said about "modern adventure." TLJ and Syberia were classic point-and-click, as were the first two Broken Sword games. On the cited link, Ragnar is referring to Dreamfall as the "modern adventure," not TLJ.

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#338079 - 06/03/08 12:53 AM finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: Jenny100]
Preston C. Offline
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Registered: 07/07/07
Posts: 76
I finally started Dreamfall tonight, and it is definitely amazing! I think that it is my favorite adventure yet. I played for around 4 hours tonight, and finally said that I have to stop. The controls take some getting used to and I don't like how I have to fight people. But the graphics and story are great. I like fantasy games (primarily because I like the fantasy environments) and fantasy with adventure is a great combination. The graphics really submerse you in the game. Personally, I like that the game is easy and isn't full of very challenging puzzles. I like that it is not point and click.

I just finished TLJ, the other day, and then decided to go ahead and start Dreamfall. It is great seeing the things that occurred in TLJ and then seeing them ten years later. I thought TLJ was decent. It was buggy and didn't compare to Syberia, which I think came out around the same time, but still somewhat enjoyed it. Dreamfall is a huge step forward from TLJ. I was very very surprised at the ending of the TLJ.

Anyways Dreamfall seems to be a truly great game and I hope to see more from Funcom.

And Mag, thank you for the excellent walkthroughs for both of the games, couldn't have done it without your help.

Preston


Edited by Preston C. (06/03/08 12:55 AM)

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#338081 - 06/03/08 01:03 AM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: Preston C.]
Taurnil Offline
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Registered: 03/15/08
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I agree with you Preston C. Well the fight scenes didn't bother me because they were too easy and casual. The game is great, it's like Alice being in wonderland although I disagree with you on the 'buggy' issue of TLJ. Apart from one bug (where a patch fixed it) the whole game was an hymn on how an adventure game must be built! Syberia is a totally different game but a masterpiece too! (one of my favourites).

smile
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#338140 - 06/03/08 07:20 AM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: Taurnil]
MaG Offline
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Glad to be of help, Preston.

I agree with you guys. I am not an action or arcadey gamer (except SuperCow and laugh SuperGranny) but I enjoyed Dreamfall - gaming, story and puzzles.

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#338273 - 06/03/08 10:48 AM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: MaG]
Jenny100 Offline
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Registered: 10/24/00
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Dreamfall made me crazy because I'd keep getting stuck on the stealth or those annoying timed matching puzzles that I kept missing and had to keep doing over and over and over and over ........and over over and over over and.... over and over over and over over and over over ...

That kind of thing is both boring and frustrating. If any new adventure games are made like this, I'd like to be warned in advance so I don't make the mistake of wasting money on them. If I want action in a game, I'd much rather play an action/adventure that includes cheats.

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#338275 - 06/03/08 10:54 AM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: Jenny100]
Becky Offline
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Registered: 02/16/00
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lol Jenny. I spent time analyzing those puzzles, and had a theory that the symbol/pattern shifts were usually close together. Then, after several attempts, I decided that I must have been imagining things when I thought they were close together.

I usually got them after about the 5th or 6th "over."

Were the symbol shifts totally random?

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#338278 - 06/03/08 11:06 AM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: Becky]
MaG Offline
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Okay, Jenny! wink

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#338355 - 06/03/08 01:00 PM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: MaG]
LindaMarion Offline
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Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
i think it was absolute terrible and unfair.mags walkthrough said the first time match puzzle needed 4 matches ok
but she said the last one was 7 matches i think about same time allocated.it was almost impossible for any normal guy

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#338372 - 06/03/08 01:22 PM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: LindaMarion]
Rushes Offline
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Registered: 07/10/05
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Maybe so, but it's still preferable to being chased around an underground cavern by a 20ft troll. laugh
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#338400 - 06/03/08 02:22 PM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: Rushes]
LindaMarion Offline
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Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
rushes - i didnt understand that.could you please explain?tia

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#338440 - 06/03/08 03:43 PM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: LindaMarion]
MaG Offline
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Registered: 12/28/99
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LindaMarion,

There is a puzzle that includes hiding from a big monster that can get you killed.

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#338444 - 06/03/08 03:56 PM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: MaG]
LindaMarion Offline
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Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
Oh yes. do you mean that horrible creature bit like a obese man that had tubes attached over him?

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#338451 - 06/03/08 04:13 PM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: LindaMarion]
Rushes Offline
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LindaMarion, sounds as though you were lucky enough to miss the big troll - do you remember the underground section, playing as April, where you had to run around different chambers and fiddle with runes? That was the part of the game that almost defeated me. Compared to that, matching a series of symbols to open a lock was an absolute doddle. smile
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#338453 - 06/03/08 04:15 PM Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100]
Preston C. Offline
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Registered: 07/07/07
Posts: 76
Originally Posted By: Jenny100
Dreamfall made me crazy because I'd keep getting stuck on the stealth or those annoying timed matching puzzles that I kept missing and had to keep doing over and over and over and over ........and over over and over over and.... over and over over and over over and over over ...

That kind of thing is both boring and frustrating. If any new adventure games are made like this, I'd like to be warned in advance so I don't make the mistake of wasting money on them. If I want action in a game, I'd much rather play an action/adventure that includes cheats.


Well said! I definitely agree. I prefer to leave the fighting out of the adventure. If you want to fight do it in a action game, but not an adventure!, in my opinion. There are plenty of action games, but I definitely would not like to see adventure games have fighting in them.

Oh, and Mag, your walkthrough for TLJ was especially helpful. That game would have been impossible for me to finish it, without a walkthrough. There were so many weird items to put together. That is one thing I didn't like about that game. Dreamfall though is a major improvement as far as that goes.


Edited by Preston C. (06/03/08 04:24 PM)

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#338456 - 06/03/08 04:19 PM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: Rushes]
LindaMarion Offline
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Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
rushes
i dont remember that at all.could you copy the sentence or sentences from the mag walkthrough and paste them here and illl look again. thanks


Edited by LindaMarion (06/03/08 04:20 PM)

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#338461 - 06/03/08 04:38 PM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: LindaMarion]
Rushes Offline
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Registered: 07/10/05
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It's the section almost immediately before the guy in the greenhouse that you mentioned earlier.
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#338546 - 06/03/08 06:31 PM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: Rushes]
LindaMarion Offline
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Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
cant remember it.seems i must have missed it some how
oh goodie

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#339307 - 06/04/08 09:59 PM Re: finished TLJ and have finally started Dreamfall... [Re: LindaMarion]
Preston C. Offline
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Registered: 07/07/07
Posts: 76
There is an update on Ragnar's site posted recently about TLJ.

http://ragnartornquist.com/?p=461#more-461


Edited by Preston C. (06/04/08 10:00 PM)

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#339310 - 06/04/08 10:06 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Becky]
BrownEyedTigre Offline
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THanks Preston, Becky posted the link a couple days ago.

Originally Posted By: Becky
More, very recent information here on Ragnar Tornquist's blog.


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#339320 - 06/04/08 10:19 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: BrownEyedTigre]
Preston C. Offline
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Registered: 07/07/07
Posts: 76
OOPS! My mistake.

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