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#264071 - 01/17/08 03:37 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35363
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Tomer
Well, what would you prefer? A movie with interruptions (Dreamfall?) or a series of puzzles, that connect nothing with nothing?

The puzzles. At least then it would be a game.

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Even if you're not cracking your head up, and just leading your character from a place to another, plus choosing the forms of dialogs - I still call that gaming.

I'd call that an interactive movie rather than an adventure game.

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In my eyes, what gives games their special thing, for me, is the fact that they give you the strongest illusion of being a part of the story.

I never felt I was "part of" the Dreamfall story. I felt I was "witnessing" it, just as I would witness a movie. Occasionally it would be interrupted by the need to fight something or do one of those stupid lock minigames.

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If there's no story, there's no game. At least, not an adventure game.

If there are no challenges, there's no game.
Dreamfall had "challenges" in the form of clumsy fights and lock find-and-click-the-symbol-real-fast minigames. There weren't many adventure type puzzles at all, and the ones there were were often flawed (e.g. - the sound that only played once that was supposed to be a vital clue for a puzzle).

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Might as well play mine sweeper.

So all puzzles look like minesweeper to you?

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However, I do agree that a game with good puzzles, integrated with the plot, has a definite advantage. I still claim puzzles should support the story, and not vice versa. I don't see how that's not true.

What differentiates it from a movie then?
Not just the puzzles, but the type of puzzles.

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If someone were to develop a game, I would want him to have a vision for a story, for things he wants to convey. Only afterwards, I think he needs to develop good, solid puzzles for the sake of the plot.

There's something to be said for developing them at the same time. You can have a rough outline for how the story goes, but once you get into the details of how the story will progress you should consider the puzzles at the same time. That's probably the only way you can get the pacing of the story correct.

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#264119 - 01/17/08 06:16 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100]
Tomer Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 793
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
Well, if you want it like that:

Originally Posted By: Jenny100
Originally Posted By: Tomer
Well, what would you prefer? A movie with interruptions (Dreamfall?) or a series of puzzles, that connect nothing with nothing?

The puzzles. At least then it would be a game.


Then perhaps our expectations from games are different. While you might be correct to call a series of puzzles a "game", it would still be a very empty game in my eyes. If all games were like that, I would really want to go to movies and read books only.

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Even if you're not cracking your head up, and just leading your character from a place to another, plus choosing the forms of dialogs - I still call that gaming.

I'd call that an interactive movie rather than an adventure game.

Call it what you like. I don't believe there should be only one type of adventure game. It's like saying "that's not true art". It might not be a game by your definition, but it certainly is by mine.

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In my eyes, what gives games their special thing, for me, is the fact that they give you the strongest illusion of being a part of the story.

I never felt I was "part of" the Dreamfall story. I felt I was "witnessing" it, just as I would witness a movie. Occasionally it would be interrupted by the need to fight something or do one of those stupid lock minigames.

When I said a "part of", I meant the fact that you control the pace and progress of events. You sympathize with characters, and lead them. Of course it's programmed, like every game, but the illusion is what matters.
Besides, you obviously speak for yourself since there are many who were really touched by this game.

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If there's no story, there's no game. At least, not an adventure game.

If there are no challenges, there's no game.
Dreamfall had "challenges" in the form of clumsy fights and lock find-and-click-the-symbol-real-fast minigames. There weren't many adventure type puzzles at all, and the ones there were were often flawed (e.g. - the sound that only played once that was supposed to be a vital clue for a puzzle).


Again, if we're talking about a "game" in it's classic definition, I guess you have a point there. However, I still think that a game centered only around puzzles would be "fun", at best. Nothing close to experienced I have with games I consider good. It would take the essence of the word "adventure" away from adventure games.
btw, the music puzzle - you actually get to hear the creatures humming the 4 tunes all the time. This is how I solved it. They just never stopped humming the tunes until I opened the door.
Also, another beautiful element that I noticed is that these four tunes were an axis for the soundtrack of this area. It was very haunting.

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Might as well play mine sweeper.

So all puzzles look like minesweeper to you?

Of course not. Most of them are related to a certain plot line.

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However, I do agree that a game with good puzzles, integrated with the plot, has a definite advantage. I still claim puzzles should support the story, and not vice versa. I don't see how that's not true.

What differentiates it from a movie then?
Not just the puzzles, but the type of puzzles.


What diffrentiates it from a movie is the fact that you still lead your character in your pace, you still get an illusion (most of us did) that you're responsible for the plot's progress, and besides: there are some challanges in Dreamafall! That part in Victory Hotel... Oh my g*d! That was so frightning, and I failed a couple of times.
If a game were to have no challanges at all, I would find it a bit silly, but if it had a really good plot, I'd play it anyway.
I dunno, I might also enjoy playing a game filled with puzzles and nothing more. But I know that while one might make me excited, anticipated, frightened, anxious, curious, etc.... the other would only be fun. At best.

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If someone were to develop a game, I would want him to have a vision for a story, for things he wants to convey. Only afterwards, I think he needs to develop good, solid puzzles for the sake of the plot.

There's something to be said for developing them at the same time. You can have a rough outline for how the story goes, but once you get into the details of how the story will progress you should consider the puzzles at the same time. That's probably the only way you can get the pacing of the story correct.


It definitely sounds ideal.
I'm only saying - if you'd tell me: Listen, I have two games; one has a really good critisizm about it's plot, story, elements, etc... while the other has some really good puzzles...
I would take the plot game smile.
The best puzzles I can think of, are always strongly related to the plot.
I really liked LSR in GK3, for example. One of the best puzzles I've ever seen.
Also, the spider chair in Spire, in Myst 4 (and Spire generally).

A puzzle with nothing behind it is so... empty.
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There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.

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#264151 - 01/17/08 07:39 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
JohnBoy Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 7745
Loc: Kentwood, Left my heart in New...
I may as well comment once and for all. Glad I played it (?) or whatever it was you did with the so called game. But it is at the bottom of my list as far as games go. Great story though!
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I Baag, Therefore I Am. Update: I Don't Baag Anymore, Therefore I Ain't! Update: I'm baaging again but just a little.
JohnBoy
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#264155 - 01/17/08 07:45 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: JohnBoy]
catsmom Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 11/14/01
Posts: 2749
Loc: california
I'm playing the game right now(Thanks to a special person) and I'm enjoying it. I dont like the fighting but the storyline is interesting.
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smile

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#264253 - 01/17/08 09:55 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35363
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Tomer
btw, the music puzzle - you actually get to hear the creatures humming the 4 tunes all the time. This is how I solved it. They just never stopped humming the tunes until I opened the door.


Click to reveal..
I'm talking about the sound you hear when you put the glowing egg on the weird machine. It was supposed to make a sound you had to match for the wall glyph puzzle. And it would not repeat unless you reloaded a save from before you used the egg.


The most annoying thing about it is that they must have had the ability to design better puzzles, but they apparently couldn't be bothered. TLJ had much better puzzles -- the alchemy puzzle, for example.

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#264300 - 01/18/08 12:38 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Volkana Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 2044
Loc: Greece
Thanks a lot Tomer for your review of Dreamfall... I didn't want to play this game because the previous one(The Longest Journey) was for me a very boring game with a lot of walking and no story. After i read your review i definetely give it a try. At least it has puzzles...
It sounds promising...
thanks
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Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

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#264322 - 01/18/08 04:07 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Volkana]
Tomer Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 793
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
Volkana.... the whole discussion is about the fact that Dreamfall doesn't really have puzzles :), but a wonderful story.

Jenny100, I was talking about that puzzle.
Click to reveal..
The same tunes that the glowing egg gives you, are hummed by the creature all the time. Check it out if you like
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There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.

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#264324 - 01/18/08 04:14 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Volkana Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/03/08
Posts: 2044
Loc: Greece
It seems that i missed that part or i understand wrong...
I thought you said that there were puzzles but not challenging at all and very common...
Anyway...

Sorry... blush


Edited by VOLKANA (01/18/08 04:22 AM)
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Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.

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#264419 - 01/18/08 08:21 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Volkana]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26894
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
I learn something new every day! I didn't realize that
Click to reveal..
the creatures hum!


A good reason to go back in Dreamfall and see what else I missed.

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#264457 - 01/18/08 09:45 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35363
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Tomer
Jenny100, I was talking about that puzzle.
Click to reveal..
The same tunes that the glowing egg gives you, are hummed by the creature all the time. Check it out if you like


Click to reveal..
I don't remember any creature in that area that hummed in the area around the waterwheel and the cave. Was the creater in a different area?

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#264509 - 01/18/08 11:39 AM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100]
Tomer Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 793
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
Jenny and Becky:
Click to reveal..
When you start wondering around with Zoe in that purpulish underwater area, you keep hearing a distant "mmm mmm mmm mmm"... Be attentive. I play games with loud speakers, cause I like to create atmosphere (that's why I get scared so many times smile ). If you don't remember it, Jenny, you probably simply didn't notice it. It's distinct and in the background.
While you girls are at it, try and notice the soundtrack of that place - it has, as I've said, these magical 4 tunes, as a base for the whole piece. It's like, a repetetive part. Very beautiful.
Good luck on finding it!


Volkana, there are *some* challanges to it, but if anyone would come to me seeking a good puzzle game, I would definitelly not recommend it.
I'd recommend Myst, most of all. Especially 3, 4 and 2.

By the way, our discussion reminded me of the questions: what's more important in a song? The lyrics or the music?
In the case of a song, I know that one with good lyrics, but bad music, would probably not attract me in the first place, so I won't get to know it, while a song with good music but bad lyrics would attract me, only to discover it's empty smile.
I would call the "music", in this case, the puzzles and graphics.
And the lyrics - that's the story.
For me.


Edited by Tomer (01/18/08 11:42 AM)
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There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.

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#264539 - 01/18/08 12:43 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
RayBres Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 05/30/06
Posts: 165
Loc: Des Plaines, Illinois
Ah, Dreamfall! If sales were proportional to the controversy a game creates, then Funcom would have made a fortune. The current dialog is reminiscent of threads that went on and on about the time the game was released. I don't think that even the recent Limbo of the Lost dust-up had as much controversy as this game generated.

Click to reveal..
While on the subject, oldmariner stated something earlier in this thread that I'd like to see. It would be another thread where people could think up ways to resurrect April in the next installment with the very important provision that the means would not be cheesy. As I see it, that will be Ragnar's biggest challenge if he chooses to do that at all. I won't start a new thread though because, in spite of what Becky thinks, I'm still not worthy.
yes
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#264562 - 01/18/08 01:36 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: RayBres]
Tomer Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 06/12/07
Posts: 793
Loc: Tel Aviv, Israel.
Hmmm...
Click to reveal..
Who says April needs to be ressurected? Moreover, April could still be "alive", someplace else - not on Earth. That little girl in Dreamfall - she died, yet she was still alive somewhere. It's not impossible, and I didn't find it cheezy at all
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There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.

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#264604 - 01/18/08 03:25 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer]
oldmariner Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1380
Originally Posted By: Tomer
Hmmm...
Click to reveal..
Who says April needs to be ressurected? Moreover, April could still be "alive", someplace else - not on Earth. That little girl in Dreamfall - she died, yet she was still alive somewhere. It's not impossible, and I didn't find it cheezy at all


Click to reveal..
By cheezy I think the meaning was a way to bring April back that is believable. Not cheezy in the way she presumably died. However, there is nothing portrayed in the game that proved April perished. Two ways to look at this, Kian was having a life altering experience. He was questioning all that he believed and was gravitating toward accepting the rebel's position. From that we could accept that he only struck April with a "glancing" blow to mislead his antagonist. Or if we choose not to follow the redemption of kian path we can propose the blow did not pierce April's armor and she simply swam away under water.

My comment about April's resurrection was not about bringing her back from the dead. It was redeeming her spirit and creating for her a return to a positive view of life. The sparkle in this young woman and the love of life she had in game one was taken in this episode. I don't doubt for a moment April lives. It's my desire that Ragnar brings back someone close to the old April. I expected her to grow but turning her into a bitter unloving warrior is the most unforgivable sin created by Dreamfall

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#264688 - 01/18/08 07:08 PM Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner]
sierramindy Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 1853
Loc: Rockford, Illinois
I agree with you oldmariner, that the change in April was unforgivable, but since the name of the game is Dreamfall maybe Zoe dreamed the part where April starts and Zoe leaves. She was getting those strange messages about someone needing help and so she had a nightmare or whatever. I didn't finish the game so I have no idea what the ending was like. Maybe in a sequel Zoe would wake up and actually find our real April and make everybody happy. Oh well, I can dream too, can't I?
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