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#269574 - 01/27/08 11:40 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
oldmariner Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1441
I'm with you Mad, I am not interested in paying full retail price to "rent" a game. It is a sad thing that these pirates create a situation where publishers have to assume their customer is going to steal their game. In the meantime I will continue to resent being treated like a crook and refuse to participate. It appears companies are forced into behaviors like Sony's with its invasive and sneaky root kit and the more recent Starforce protection scheme. As a customer I will not put up with it. I have not bought a Sony product since that stunt, nor will I. To me that was more dishonest than the pirates. I will not support games that use invasive protections. The current reaction by distributors is not in their best interest in the long term. I don't see how treating your customers as the enemy works.


Edited by oldmariner (01/27/08 11:41 AM)

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#269626 - 01/27/08 01:18 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: oldmariner]
chrissie Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4407
Loc: london uk
I'm starting off topic here but hope it will lead to some relevance! After a tip-off from a kind fellow GBer I discovered that I had Starforce protection sneakily installed on my system.
I investigated (as all good AG fans should! lol) only to find that it must have been sitting there for a couple of years owing to the surprising number of AGs that use this. For more of a digression - the company that produce Starforce also have a removal tool & are keen that publishers who use Starforce also incorporate this into their games - obviously not happening yet - not surprising as you're not informed that you are installing Starforce in the first place!

Anyway to get a little more to the point - the gist of the counter arguments that I read against this kind of security system, apart from it being invasive, is that it is only going to stop the ordinary gamer from trying to make a copy to pass onto his/her mate(s) (YES! that's wrong!) - but won't stop the more professional pirates who will find a way!

I feel that this is exactly the same with download only games - that they only have to be in the hands of an expert hacker - & the people that lose out (as well as the developer/publisher always) are the genuine gamers who have payed out good money for a game that potentially is unplayable in the future!

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#269733 - 01/27/08 05:29 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: chrissie]
LindaMarion Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
Mr oldmariner
I am not trying to be a hard head here and I understand their problem and I'm sympathetic to the problem. To allow unprotected early downloads before the disk is released is a recipe for disaster. The pirates would have a field day

I dont understand at all this
It is just as ease for the pirats to copy the cd game as the dowload ones
it has been so more than 1 time even before the cd game was releast

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#269763 - 01/27/08 07:00 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: LindaMarion]
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14813
Loc: Northeast NJ
Hi all again...

My only beef...Is why this download thing? <period>..
As most of you stated this is a disaster waiting to happen..
Lets go back to hard copy...Since we are paying the same price for download & have nothing in hand...Why are these publishers asking for problems duh

I have read this reason & that reason..

What it boils down to is money....But the publishers will lose alot of customers...Its very obvious...That most people have dial up & most want to have something that they paid $40.00 for..

I do hope this will get resolved & the publishers will see & hear our crys..


My Opinion
Thanks
_________________________
Luv Dar


GameBoomers
"Games Are More Enticing Because Of Our "MaG"nificent Efficient Radiant Site"

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#269815 - 01/27/08 08:47 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Darleen03]
Rayfer Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 122
Loc: Florida
Good Evening to All,

First understand that copying discs will ALWAYS be with us, You each must make the choice. If they want to control there games then maybe they should offer one price to play (rent) and another to own it. If a game costs 30.00 from a store then charge 20.00 to play it and 30.00 to own it (Say rent time good for 90 days) to own it means a burnable download with permanent key. Even with this idea there will be people out there who can and will find a workaround
Ray
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No matter where you go, there you are.

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#269826 - 01/27/08 09:03 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: LindaMarion]
oldmariner Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1441
Originally Posted By: LindaMarion
Mr oldmariner
I am not trying to be a hard head here and I understand their problem and I'm sympathetic to the problem. To allow unprotected early downloads before the disk is released is a recipe for disaster. The pirates would have a field day

I dont understand at all this
It is just as ease for the pirats to copy the cd game as the dowload ones
it has been so more than 1 time even before the cd game was releast


What I am suggesting is if they offered unprotected downloads before the release of the hard copies pirates would have a free ride. So copy protection is needed to be included with downloads. But to also include that install key/serial number crosses the line.

By including a limit on how many times you can install the game you bought is an out right insult to anyone who buys their product. In effect it reduces it to a rental.

Yes the pirates have had no difficulty in cracking copy protection. within a few weeks or even days after a game release the thieves have already cracked it. So isn't the whole protection thing a waste of time and money? Unless of course as a seller you have resigned yourself to short window where you can make a profit.

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#269827 - 01/27/08 09:06 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Darleen03]
Mad Online   content
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23617
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi smile

Sorry, Jenny100, I must apologise for completely missing your reply blush

"Mad, what game were you thinking of."

I was speaking hyperthetically about the purchase of a downloadable version of a game - not referring to any game in particular.

This is what I find confusing ....

In normal buyer/seller circumstances, if I purchase an item that is offered for sale, I am invoiced for it, and once I settle that invoice the ownership of the item then passes to me and a contract has been fulfilled by both parties.

Considering what has been said on this thread, I am wondering what exactly it IS that I will actually be "buying" if I pay for a downloable version of a game ....

Am I only buying the right to play the game ??
I won't ever own the copy ??

And further to not owning the copy, neither will I be able to play it whenever I might wish to without the continued cooperation of the seller ??

So what kind of a purchase/sales contract is that ??

Mad rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes


_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#269832 - 01/27/08 09:24 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
Bernard Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 3037
Loc: the Netherlands
Mad, did you ever read the software licenses when you install a new piece of software? (I know most people don't!). Whenever you obtain software, you don't owe it but you just did pay for the right to use it. When you sell that software (and even that is not always allowed) you are obliged to remove the software from your computer.


Bernard

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#269834 - 01/27/08 09:27 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14813
Loc: Northeast NJ
Mad. Hi

I 100 % agree with what you are saying...

We as AGERS have no rights to downloads even after we pay full price...

I do hope something is done about this download thing duh

Hi Bernard...I understand about some software downloads, But this is Adventure games...Which in the pass has never been offered for download.


Edited by Darleen2003 (01/27/08 09:29 PM)
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GameBoomers
"Games Are More Enticing Because Of Our "MaG"nificent Efficient Radiant Site"

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#269869 - 01/27/08 10:44 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Bernard]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35568
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Bernard
Whenever you obtain software, you don't own it but you just did pay for the right to use it.

If that were true, people should get their money back for games that don't work.
It's more like they're buying the right to try to use it.

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#269882 - 01/28/08 01:12 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Bernard]
oldmariner Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1441
Originally Posted By: Bernard
Mad, did you ever read the software licenses when you install a new piece of software? (I know most people don't!). Whenever you obtain software, you don't owe it but you just did pay for the right to use it. When you sell that software (and even that is not always allowed) you are obliged to remove the software from your computer.


Bernard


Generally when you are presented a contract you read it and either agree or don't. If you agree fine. But those user agreements shoved down your throat concealed in a box can hardly be legal. Try this! Open the package and read the agreement. No way do you find the agreement on the outside. Just like no way do you learn what invasive copy protection is attached. Then take it back to where you bought it. Tell the clerk you did not agree to the terms and see how fast you get a refund on an open software box. Or better yet go to Staples rip open a box of any software. Tell the clerk you need to read the agreement before you buy. Request the use of a staples computer to view the agreement because it is in a pdf file on the disk and there is no printed copy in the box. 1 you get thrown out of the store 2 You get charged with destroying property.

Where is any contract considered legal when the terms are not disclosed prior to the closing of the transaction?


Edited by oldmariner (01/28/08 01:20 AM)

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#269937 - 01/28/08 07:47 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: oldmariner]
Mad Online   content
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23617
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Bernard smile

I'm not sure that we're still on topic with this particular area of discussion so I won't be surprised if I get a slight nudge from a wandering Mod lol ... but ....

I must admit I don't read the software license before installing a game - and in any case I couldn't read and agree to any provisos in such a licence (as oldmariner so rightly points out) before handing over my cash to buy the game.

So, if the rights of the game's original "owner" demand respect, what about my rights as "the purchaser" if, having bought the game I take it home, unseal it, put the disk in my computer, read the licence details and decide ...."Oh dear, I can't agree to these conditions" .... ??
Can I demand the same respect and claim a full refund of the purchase price ??

I can see the need for rules and regulations in relation to software such as, for example, a Windows programme, where cooperation with Microsoft is unavoidable because they are willing to update their product free of charge as and when needed via an ongoing agreement with the purchaser. They will obviously impose stringent rules and regulations to protect that product.

But I don't understand why similar software rules should apply to the purchase and use of a game.

Being offered an "ongoing upgrade contract" as part of the purchase of a computer operating system and the "straightforward one off purchase" of a supposedly completed computer game are surely two totally different concepts ??

Mind boggling, to me, anyway !! woozy

Cheers.

Mad wave






_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#269951 - 01/28/08 08:10 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26894
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
Wandering in...actually, the licensing of PC games fits in with the discussion, I think.

If I had an intellectual properties lawyer at my beck and call, I'd consider weighing in on the licensing thing, but unfortunately I don't, so I'm clueless about it. wink

Hmmm. Maybe I'm clueless about the rest of these issues too!

It seems to me that when a portion of a business's customers are trying to steal their product, it is natural for the business to try to limit what is stolen from them. Here in the US, large clothing stores, for instance, still put those "sense-o-matic" tags on clothing. They don't do it because they think all their customers are thieves, and they know that some of the customers who ARE thieves have figured out a way around the tags. Stores do it because if they didn't, even more of their stock would be stolen.

Copy protection and key codes strike me as similar efforts. Yes, they are annoying, and it would be great if the legitimate customer didn't have to put up with them, but the majority of the business who make PC games have deemed them a necessity.

I suppose the question we're getting down to here is if the efforts to reduce theft for downloaded games are significantly more annoying than the efforts to reduce theft for games on disk.

Personally, I haven't found them to be more annoying, as I haven't yet downloaded a game and deleted it and then found that I couldn't download it again. Maybe I'll feel differently a few years down the road, but for now I'm pleased as punch to be able to download a game months before it's available on disk!

I would hazard a (somewhat educated) guess that about 70 percent of GameBoomers have broadband. This makes downloading an option for the vast majority of us, and I think that's why we're seeing more games offered as downloads.

We've worked at GameBoomers to support the developers and the publishers of PC adventure games because we want them to keep making and publishing games. It's disheartening to see adventure developers go out of business or switch over to making non-adventure console games (which don't seem to have nearly the same piracy problem).





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#270011 - 01/28/08 11:03 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Becky]
LindaMarion Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
Easey answer
Just stop to buy the download games until the develpers decide to make there games exactly the same as the CDs

Same product same pri ce same conditons. whats the diifrence?

At least 2 well known indy develpers have reproted that there games were pirate just 3 or 4 days after they release.
Sevral big games were availble from pirates 2 or 3 weeks before they were on sale

After
The downloas should be a few $s cheaper not more diffcult they do not have boxes manuels postage etc


Edited by LindaMarion (01/28/08 11:09 AM)

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#270023 - 01/28/08 11:27 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: LindaMarion]
MrLipid Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 12/30/00
Posts: 1946
Loc: Land of 10,000 Lakes
Anyone noticed how many previously download-only casual games are now shipping on CD?

For example, I think more than one of the MCF games has shown up on CD.

Which says to me if a game is popular enough, as measured by number of downloads, it will eventually show up on CD.


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