GAMEBOOMERS provides you with all the latest PC adventure computer games information, forum, walkthroughs, reviews and news.
GB Reviews Latest & Upcoming Adventure Games GB Annual Game Lists GB Interviews

BAAGS

GB @ acebook

GB @ witter

About Us
Walkthroughs free games galore Independent Games World of Adventure Patches Game Publishers & Developers GameBoomers Store
The Adventure Shop Big Fish Games Homepage
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
#268804 - 01/25/08 09:39 PM Downloads & The release of hard copy
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14686
Loc: Northeast NJ
I don't know if anyone has a reason or maybe can explain..

But here it goes... I find that lately with the downloads being so easy to acquire...That the publishers are holding back on the hard copies....

Now my question is : If they have a download of a finished game..Why does it take so long for the hard copy to be distributed ? headscratch

Thanks monky
_________________________
Luv Dar


GameBoomers
"Games Are More Enticing Because Of Our "MaG"nificent Efficient Radiant Site"

Top
#268811 - 01/25/08 09:48 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Darleen03]
BrownEyedTigre Online   happy
The Sassy Global Moderator PR Liaison
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 64412
Loc: In the Naughty Corner
I believe thehood gave an answer for one game in particular awhile back here:

Originally Posted By: thehood
Hello,

Sherlock Holmes versus Arsene Lupin is going to be only next week for the downloadable English Version, for the boxed version there is little chance it could be found in NA earlier than next year...
play.com won't have the game, as they are not to receive copies until a UK publisher will first release the game.
Active negotiations are to be closed soon but to release games takes always a long time...Sorry to sound boring but I prefer to tell things as they are.

For the players who want to see the game and get a deep dive inside please go at the link below, theses 3D screens are very very very impressive:

http://www.panogames.com/games/sherlock_holmes_vs_arsene_lupin.htm


We have heard the same story from other publishers as well.

I am sure that the profits are higher for them as well.

Ana
_________________________
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?

Top
#268813 - 01/25/08 09:54 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: BrownEyedTigre]
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14686
Loc: Northeast NJ
Thanks ,Ana

So do you believe the profits are higher for a download then a hard copy? I would imagine so since you don't have the packaging & everything else... Then the download should be cheaper !!!

This is not fair at all...I think it stinks..So in the future us AGers has to look forward to this kind of distribution through download ?

<Rats> My opinion
_________________________
Luv Dar


GameBoomers
"Games Are More Enticing Because Of Our "MaG"nificent Efficient Radiant Site"

Top
#268815 - 01/25/08 09:56 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Darleen03]
BrownEyedTigre Online   happy
The Sassy Global Moderator PR Liaison
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 64412
Loc: In the Naughty Corner
Darleen, you can also check out the responses on the same thread you posted awhile back HERE. wink

Ana wave
_________________________
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?

Top
#268820 - 01/25/08 10:02 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: BrownEyedTigre]
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14686
Loc: Northeast NJ
Ana, Thanks...

I realise I have posted about this subject before....
But at that time I really didn't think this download thing would get to the point that hard copies will be held back...I was hopeing it might be just something they would try out...
But now the games like Cleopatra are still not on hard copy. duh

I have now realized that it will be a practice on the publishers part...

wave
_________________________
Luv Dar


GameBoomers
"Games Are More Enticing Because Of Our "MaG"nificent Efficient Radiant Site"

Top
#268825 - 01/25/08 10:06 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Darleen03]
BrownEyedTigre Online   happy
The Sassy Global Moderator PR Liaison
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 64412
Loc: In the Naughty Corner
Perhaps rather than looking at the situation as holding back the hard copy, you would be best to view it as being able to get it earlier via download. I am sure many games have been completed and we never knew about it until they announced a release date. Now they have another way to cater to the impatient gamer. lol

Ana wave
_________________________
How old would you be if you didn't know how old you are?

Top
#268830 - 01/25/08 10:12 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: BrownEyedTigre]
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14686
Loc: Northeast NJ
I agree....

But I do believe the download should be cheaper...that's my only beef..

I do like the option of a quick fix download...But the cost is rather high for a download without the packaging.

A Gamer can never sell or trade the downloaded product wink
_________________________
Luv Dar


GameBoomers
"Games Are More Enticing Because Of Our "MaG"nificent Efficient Radiant Site"

Top
#268886 - 01/26/08 03:54 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Darleen03]
PolloDiablo Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 611
And they don't look as good on my shelf. lol
_________________________
I'll be back, one day, when I feel like it.

Top
#268898 - 01/26/08 04:45 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Darleen03]
gremlin Offline

Addicted Boomer

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1613
Loc: Isle of Man
There are, I think, three main objections to electronic downloads, from a gamer's perspective:

  • no disk - what happens if I have to re-format my hard disk? I lose all my games completely
  • no paper manual - how can I consult the manual whilst I'm playing if it's on the disk?
  • requirement for a fast Internet connection - a full sized modern game can be several gigabytes of data.


(Some people also like to collect the game boxes for the sake of having a collection of nice boxes)

Personally, the only thing I really miss about a downloaded version is the paper manual. It also bugs me that many games that come in a box often have an electronic manual ('The Witcher', I'm looking at you!!)

I would suggest that, if games were distributed as ISO images using p2p networks like bittorrent, then the gamer can burn the image to a CD/DVD (very easy with most CD/DVD burner software packages). Game manuals should then be included as easily printable materials on the disk.

(There's probably a legitimate business model in there for someone like Amazon to use the ISO (with permission of course) and produce CD/DVDs for those who wish to buy a pre-burnt copy)

For the piracy-paranoid (not that you're ever going to be able to beat them whilst the police tolerate obviously pirating merchants in town markets), the ISO could be published completely freely, but so key functionality (like the installer, or a software key, or similar) could be purchased through a secure website.

To summarise: make ISO images available online through a technology that doesn't require a fast 'net connection, allowing people to burn their own copy of the game and print a simplified form of manual, which they then install and activate with a securely purchased key.

Oh, yes, and you're absolutely right Darleen, there is no justification for electronic downloads costing as much as a bricks-and-mortar distributed game. The production, distribution, and shop costs are completely eliminate (especially if you use bittorrent or similar to distribute as you don't have to pay the bandwidth costs for every single download!)

Finally, the game publishers probably couldn't care less whether you can trade your games, though the my model above doesn't actually pre-clude it! (not sure about the transfer of keys though)

Gremlin


Edited by gremlin (01/26/08 04:46 AM)
Edit Reason: wow, that was longer than I expected!

Top
#268914 - 01/26/08 06:30 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: gremlin]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26893
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
The problem as I see it is that developers are finding it harder and harder to find publishers who can put PC games on shelves in brick and mortar stores. This may not be true in places like Germany, but it is true in the UK and in the US, and the English language versions are what I personally need.

If you go in your local Gamestop here in the US you see -- console games, one or two stand-alone fixtures with PC games and lots and lots of used console games. It would appear that where Gamestop makes its profits is on used console games. As these take over the store, there is simply less space for PC games. A couple of Gamestops in my area appear now to only get PC games from the large distributors like Ubisoft.

My local Walmart has fewer PC games than it did last year. For the Christmas selling season, it had 5 adventure games for sale, most of which did sell out by Christmas (I'm thrilled to say). Since there were dozens of adventures released in the last quarter of 2007, this means that only a small percentage made it onto shelves in Walmart. Target carries a few more adventures than Walmart, but often these are older games in jewel case versions.

Best Buy and Circuit City (happily!) do carry many recent adventure titles, but even so, it can take months from the time the game is finished to the time it makes it onto shelves there.

In the UK, from what I've heard, it's even harder to find PC adventure games on actual store shelves.

Publishers -- the good people who put the finished game in boxes, market it and distribute it -- once they've committed to an adventure title, do NOT want it sold less cheaply via download on the web. It's hard enough getting games onto shelves -- publishers don't want to lose a large chunk of their customer base to a cheaper download.

So (it's my understanding) that the developer can usually only sell the download version at the same price as the boxed version, and that's only if the publisher agrees to let the developer sell it separately via download in the first place.

Downloading the game from the developer's online store sends a much larger portion of the profits to the developer than to the publisher -- if you want to directly support the people creating the game, that is the way to go.

On the other hand, if you really want the game box, waiting patiently to buy the game when it releases on disk is the only way to ensure that future adventure games will be released on disk. If publishers find that they are continually losing money when they release adventure games on disk, they'll stop publishing them.


Top
#268925 - 01/26/08 07:59 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Becky]
Dyl'smom Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 186
Loc: new york
I look forward to all games having the option of a downloadable version if it means developers can offer their games faster and without having to wait for a publisher in a specific area or country. The games I have downloaded have worked flawlessly. The European developers are churning out a massive number of adventure games, they would be encouraged to continue this if their product could easily reach a wider audience, and they get a greater share of the profits.

What about offering the disk for free after download (as in the Sam and Max series) for those who feel they want a hard copy?

Dyl'smom




Top
#268931 - 01/26/08 08:24 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Dyl'smom]
sarahandus Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 06/25/05
Posts: 578
Loc: Bonney Lake, Washington

I, for one, will have to give up adventure games if the publishers insist on only download. Don't have high speed connection and can't afford it.

Top
#268936 - 01/26/08 08:59 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Becky]
chrissie Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4403
Loc: london uk
Originally Posted By: Becky
The problem as I see it is that developers are finding it harder and harder to find publishers who can put PC games on shelves in brick and mortar stores. ............

In the UK, from what I've heard, it's even harder to find PC adventure games on actual store shelves.



This is certainly very true & also very few AGs are mentioned in gaming magazines, so for fans of the genre the only way to get information about & buy the majority of games available is via the internet.
Like myself, I'm sure that many other adventure gamers, due to the unavailability of many new AGs, have gradually ceased to bother with brick & mortar stores - this in turn must lead to less demand for the few games that are stocked & also they are often cheaper to buy on-line.

My point is this: assuming more AGs are bought
on-line, rather than from brick & mortar stores (e.g. in the UK)- why does a publisher need to rely on shelf space in a brick & mortar store in order to supply a disc version of a game???

Top
#268941 - 01/26/08 09:10 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: sarahandus]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23186
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi smile

Nowadays it seems it's not just profit - but maximum profit that rules the roost ?? think

For me, downloading a game carries too many negatives - some of which have already been listed on this and past threads.

I, personally, will always be willing to wait - if waiting will give me access to a hard copy yes

But if the day comes when a hard copy is no longer be an option At ALL then I will be extremely disappointed ....

Cheers.

Mad sad
_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

Top
#268950 - 01/26/08 09:26 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26893
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
Hi chrissie -- I suspect that if a publisher is going to commit to publishing a game, they want as many distribution channels as possible. They're more likely to publish a game that will sell from store shelves as well as through online stores.

An interesting question -- as more and more purchases are made via the internet, will publishers drop the brick and mortar stores altogether and distribute the disk version online only? It seems unlikely to me, but I'm sure that stranger things have happened.

Top
#269041 - 01/26/08 11:03 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Becky]
auntiegram Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 06/10/06
Posts: 13505
Loc: northern Wisconsin
When you by online, what do you do to get the game again if the 'puter crashes or you have to take the ame out to make room for another game?? This is why I like the 'hard copy' myself.


Nan

Top
#269065 - 01/26/08 11:39 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Becky]
chrissie Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4403
Loc: london uk
Hi Becky, I suppose I was looking at The AG market as a whole rather than taking into account one publisher looking to sell as many copies as possible of one AG. I can see that if every store in an english speaking country stocked & sold just one copy of a game it could boost the sales figures considerably.

Games that tend to turn up on shelves now & again here in the UK are either based on popular TV programmes e.g CSI, Law & Order or well known characters/authors etc e.g Sherlock Holmes, Agatha Christie, Jules Verne, Da Vinci The Forbidden Manuscript.
Other titles make an appearance occasionally & I was surprised to see Carte Blanche in HMV a few weeks ago.

But, I would be curious to know the distribution of sales between serious & casual buyers i.e those that would have, & those that wouldn't have bothered, to buy a game on-line in the event of unavailability in a bricks & mortar store?

If publishers by dropping the bricks & mortar stores altogether means the end of the trend for games that are downloadable only, I am definitely for it! But I have to agree it seems unlikely!

My main objection to downloading a game, & only then assuming I can make an independant back-up disc (i.e I can re-install the game directly from the disc), is the lack of flexibility to install it on a different system in the future & think there should be an option to burn a downloadable game to CD or DVD.

Okay, I can hear the problem of Piracy being screamed at me! But, as mentioned earlier some downloadable games are commanding the same price as a boxed disc version without all the production costs. Also, you can't resell a downloadable game so if this also applied to any CD or DVD made of the game it would make pirated discs obvious. It probably wouldn't stop piracy & another potential problem could be alternative websites turning up with pirate download copies but I can't help thinking this would be on a lesser scale than the problem with boxed disc versions which can be harder to spot?


Top
#269092 - 01/26/08 12:31 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: BrownEyedTigre]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35199
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: BrownEyedTigre
Perhaps rather than looking at the situation as holding back the hard copy, you would be best to view it as being able to get it earlier via download. I am sure many games have been completed and we never knew about it until they announced a release date. Now they have another way to cater to the impatient gamer.

Do the latest Kheops games (Cleopatra and Nostradamus) even have a publisher lined up for the US?

Top
#269101 - 01/26/08 12:52 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Jenny100]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26893
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
Nostradamus will be published by Microids in the US. I haven't heard anything definite as far as a US publisher for Cleopatra.

Quote:
But, I would be curious to know the distribution of sales between serious & casual buyers i.e those that would have, & those that wouldn't have bothered, to buy a game on-line in the event of unavailability in a bricks & mortar store?


I don't know anything about that, though I agree, it would be very interesting to find out.

Quote:
Okay, I can hear the problem of Piracy being screamed at me! But, as mentioned earlier some downloadable games are commanding the same price as a boxed disc version without all the production costs. Also, you can't resell a downloadable game so if this also applied to any CD or DVD made of the game it would make pirated discs obvious. It probably wouldn't stop piracy & another potential problem could be alternative websites turning up with pirate download copies but I can't help thinking this would be on a lesser scale than the problem with boxed disc versions which can be harder to spot?


I'm not sure how piracy figures into all of this. The pirates seem to put games up on piracy sites within days of the games being released (and sometimes even before they are released). frown

This puts pressure on game publishers in general to "hype" games as much as possible before publication, because their sales will inevitably drop as soon as people can steal the game by downloading it for "free."

One positive element to sales of adventure games is that games in the adventure genre have a longer shelf life than average -- partly, I feel, because the adventure gaming community continues to buy adventures even after they are available in pirated form. It speaks volumes for the typical adventure gamer's integrity (IMHO, of course) that these gamers continue purchasing games for weeks and months after they've shown up on illegal sites.



Top
#269107 - 01/26/08 12:56 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Becky]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35199
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Becky
Nostradamus will be published by Microids in the US. I haven't heard anything definite as far as a US publisher for Cleopatra.

That's interesting. Not Dreamcatcher this time.
Haven't all their previous games been published by Dreamcatcher?

Top
#269139 - 01/26/08 02:00 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Jenny100]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26893
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
Most were published by Dreamcatcher/The Adventure Company, though there was at least one exception -- The Secrets of Da Vinci was published by Tri Synergy.

Top
#269320 - 01/26/08 09:18 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Becky]
oldmariner Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1367
I for one will continue to hold out for the hard disk. It is primarily because as the Adventure Shop and kheops both informed me that yes i can legally burn a download from them on a disk. But I must install it while connected to their site. In other words the game is not mine. I can't rely on them to be there ten years from now to give me permission to use something I bought. Also the obvious trading etc is not available.

If the trend continues to expand and hard disk become unavailable entirely then I'll find something else to occupy my leisure time. I refuse to finance a business that treats the paying customer as a crook. That's what they are doing and as an honest customer that is exactly what they are calling me. I understand pirating is a legitimate concern but treating the customer that supports their business like a thief is not the answer to THEIR problem

Top
#269383 - 01/27/08 03:29 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: oldmariner]
LindaMarion Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
hear hear Mr oldmariner
I have bo0ught maybe 100 games in boxes or jewl cases and never one download and I never will do
I think they are cuting there own throats
As you wrote / if they treat honest custmers as pirates then it only encourage people to bcome pirates and get the game freely evil devil

Top
#269403 - 01/27/08 06:05 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: oldmariner]
chrissie Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4403
Loc: london uk
Thanks for that info oldmariner, I had wrongly assumed that you could make an independant back-up disc for your own system without relying on an internet connection to the relevant site.
I totally agree with your comments & I will certainly not be paying out for downloaded games that are not ultimately mine either!! smile

I also think it's a pity for the developers if a game is never produced on disc as the longevity of the game could potentially be very limited. I know from this site that many gamers still like to replay some of the earlier games & others seek them out to play for the first time. How possible is this going to be for a download only game, are they still going to be available in 10 years time? & as you pointed out oldmariner there's no guarantee that the companies will still be around. smile

Top
#269506 - 01/27/08 10:10 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: chrissie]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23186
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi smile

I know I am a techie dunce but ....

If I have bought a "download only" game and also a key of some kind which allows me to play it, how can I be stopped from burning it to a CD/DVD in order to allow a replay in the future ??

How can what I have already paid for and installed on my machine still be controlled by the seller from a remote site ?? woozy

Cheers.

Mad think
_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

Top
#269539 - 01/27/08 10:56 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35199
Loc: southeast USA
Because some keys only work once. Specifically they'll only work with the computer you first install the game on -- and if your hard drive goes bad they won't work on the replacement. You need to know whether the key you're being given has limitations on how many times it can be used.

Top
#269549 - 01/27/08 11:05 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
oldmariner Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1367
Mad
You can burn that to a cd, but the key has to be read by their server for the install to activate. You have to connect to their site apply the key. Their server authorizes the install.

I got this from Kheops "Yes you will need to connect to the internet after downloading the game, but only the first time you run the game to activate it with the serial number"

Which means if you buy a new pc and want to reinstall it you need to get their permission. IE connect to their site. So like an old game if years later you want to install it and the service is not there you are out of luck.

Got the same reply from the Adventure Shop. In addition they incorporate whatever DRM is on the retail disk. So you get the double whammy. The copy protection and no reinstall without connecting to their server.

I am not trying to be a hard head here and I understand their problem and I'm sympathetic to the problem. To allow unprotected early downloads before the disk is released is a recipe for disaster. The pirates would have a field day. I understand the concern. But old games like Still Life have already been stolen. The pirates will figure it out anyway. I simply want to be able to use my purchase and not have to ask permission to use a product I paid for. In the area of game developers and distribution we can't rely on them being around when these new games become classics. Even with the companies that are still around many don't support old games. Gabriel Knight, kings Quest etc. That's my issue with this.

Edit**** By including a key or serial number to activate your install along with the copy protection they are indicating this. The copy protection is not working and will be cracked by pirates. Otherwise they would not need to cripple your download with that key if copy protection was adequate.


Edited by oldmariner (01/27/08 11:12 AM)

Top
#269555 - 01/27/08 11:11 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: oldmariner]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35199
Loc: southeast USA
Mad, what game were you thinking of.
My downloads for the first three Agon episodes came with a reusable key and I didn't need to be connected to the Internet to install them. But the newer downloadable games from other companies seem to require you to be connected to the Internet, whether you have to enter a key or not... and they keep track of how many times you've installed their game.

Top
#269558 - 01/27/08 11:14 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Jenny100]
oldmariner Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1367
Jenny both Kheops and the Adventure Shop told me via e-mail you have to be connected to their site each time you install the game. their server read the key/serial number to allow installation. And you can only install a game three times after that you need a new key.

Top
#269565 - 01/27/08 11:20 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: oldmariner]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23186
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi oldmariner smile

Thank you for that info thumbsup

I must say I am not pleased with it though ....

I feel that once I have paid for a copy of a game (whether on a disk or by download) surely that copy of the game should belong to me - to play and re-play as often as I might wish ?? slapforehead

I'd be interested to read the legal ruling on this type of sale.

Cheers.

Mad wave


_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

Top
#269574 - 01/27/08 11:40 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
oldmariner Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1367
I'm with you Mad, I am not interested in paying full retail price to "rent" a game. It is a sad thing that these pirates create a situation where publishers have to assume their customer is going to steal their game. In the meantime I will continue to resent being treated like a crook and refuse to participate. It appears companies are forced into behaviors like Sony's with its invasive and sneaky root kit and the more recent Starforce protection scheme. As a customer I will not put up with it. I have not bought a Sony product since that stunt, nor will I. To me that was more dishonest than the pirates. I will not support games that use invasive protections. The current reaction by distributors is not in their best interest in the long term. I don't see how treating your customers as the enemy works.


Edited by oldmariner (01/27/08 11:41 AM)

Top
#269626 - 01/27/08 01:18 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: oldmariner]
chrissie Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4403
Loc: london uk
I'm starting off topic here but hope it will lead to some relevance! After a tip-off from a kind fellow GBer I discovered that I had Starforce protection sneakily installed on my system.
I investigated (as all good AG fans should! lol) only to find that it must have been sitting there for a couple of years owing to the surprising number of AGs that use this. For more of a digression - the company that produce Starforce also have a removal tool & are keen that publishers who use Starforce also incorporate this into their games - obviously not happening yet - not surprising as you're not informed that you are installing Starforce in the first place!

Anyway to get a little more to the point - the gist of the counter arguments that I read against this kind of security system, apart from it being invasive, is that it is only going to stop the ordinary gamer from trying to make a copy to pass onto his/her mate(s) (YES! that's wrong!) - but won't stop the more professional pirates who will find a way!

I feel that this is exactly the same with download only games - that they only have to be in the hands of an expert hacker - & the people that lose out (as well as the developer/publisher always) are the genuine gamers who have payed out good money for a game that potentially is unplayable in the future!

Top
#269733 - 01/27/08 05:29 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: chrissie]
LindaMarion Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
Mr oldmariner
I am not trying to be a hard head here and I understand their problem and I'm sympathetic to the problem. To allow unprotected early downloads before the disk is released is a recipe for disaster. The pirates would have a field day

I dont understand at all this
It is just as ease for the pirats to copy the cd game as the dowload ones
it has been so more than 1 time even before the cd game was releast

Top
#269763 - 01/27/08 07:00 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: LindaMarion]
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14686
Loc: Northeast NJ
Hi all again...

My only beef...Is why this download thing? <period>..
As most of you stated this is a disaster waiting to happen..
Lets go back to hard copy...Since we are paying the same price for download & have nothing in hand...Why are these publishers asking for problems duh

I have read this reason & that reason..

What it boils down to is money....But the publishers will lose alot of customers...Its very obvious...That most people have dial up & most want to have something that they paid $40.00 for..

I do hope this will get resolved & the publishers will see & hear our crys..


My Opinion
Thanks
_________________________
Luv Dar


GameBoomers
"Games Are More Enticing Because Of Our "MaG"nificent Efficient Radiant Site"

Top
#269815 - 01/27/08 08:47 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Darleen03]
Rayfer Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 122
Loc: Florida
Good Evening to All,

First understand that copying discs will ALWAYS be with us, You each must make the choice. If they want to control there games then maybe they should offer one price to play (rent) and another to own it. If a game costs 30.00 from a store then charge 20.00 to play it and 30.00 to own it (Say rent time good for 90 days) to own it means a burnable download with permanent key. Even with this idea there will be people out there who can and will find a workaround
Ray
_________________________
No matter where you go, there you are.

Top
#269826 - 01/27/08 09:03 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: LindaMarion]
oldmariner Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1367
Originally Posted By: LindaMarion
Mr oldmariner
I am not trying to be a hard head here and I understand their problem and I'm sympathetic to the problem. To allow unprotected early downloads before the disk is released is a recipe for disaster. The pirates would have a field day

I dont understand at all this
It is just as ease for the pirats to copy the cd game as the dowload ones
it has been so more than 1 time even before the cd game was releast


What I am suggesting is if they offered unprotected downloads before the release of the hard copies pirates would have a free ride. So copy protection is needed to be included with downloads. But to also include that install key/serial number crosses the line.

By including a limit on how many times you can install the game you bought is an out right insult to anyone who buys their product. In effect it reduces it to a rental.

Yes the pirates have had no difficulty in cracking copy protection. within a few weeks or even days after a game release the thieves have already cracked it. So isn't the whole protection thing a waste of time and money? Unless of course as a seller you have resigned yourself to short window where you can make a profit.

Top
#269827 - 01/27/08 09:06 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Darleen03]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23186
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi smile

Sorry, Jenny100, I must apologise for completely missing your reply blush

"Mad, what game were you thinking of."

I was speaking hyperthetically about the purchase of a downloadable version of a game - not referring to any game in particular.

This is what I find confusing ....

In normal buyer/seller circumstances, if I purchase an item that is offered for sale, I am invoiced for it, and once I settle that invoice the ownership of the item then passes to me and a contract has been fulfilled by both parties.

Considering what has been said on this thread, I am wondering what exactly it IS that I will actually be "buying" if I pay for a downloable version of a game ....

Am I only buying the right to play the game ??
I won't ever own the copy ??

And further to not owning the copy, neither will I be able to play it whenever I might wish to without the continued cooperation of the seller ??

So what kind of a purchase/sales contract is that ??

Mad rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes


_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

Top
#269832 - 01/27/08 09:24 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
Bernard Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 3037
Loc: the Netherlands
Mad, did you ever read the software licenses when you install a new piece of software? (I know most people don't!). Whenever you obtain software, you don't owe it but you just did pay for the right to use it. When you sell that software (and even that is not always allowed) you are obliged to remove the software from your computer.


Bernard

Top
#269834 - 01/27/08 09:27 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14686
Loc: Northeast NJ
Mad. Hi

I 100 % agree with what you are saying...

We as AGERS have no rights to downloads even after we pay full price...

I do hope something is done about this download thing duh

Hi Bernard...I understand about some software downloads, But this is Adventure games...Which in the pass has never been offered for download.


Edited by Darleen2003 (01/27/08 09:29 PM)
_________________________
Luv Dar


GameBoomers
"Games Are More Enticing Because Of Our "MaG"nificent Efficient Radiant Site"

Top
#269869 - 01/27/08 10:44 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Bernard]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35199
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Bernard
Whenever you obtain software, you don't own it but you just did pay for the right to use it.

If that were true, people should get their money back for games that don't work.
It's more like they're buying the right to try to use it.

Top
#269882 - 01/28/08 01:12 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Bernard]
oldmariner Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 1367
Originally Posted By: Bernard
Mad, did you ever read the software licenses when you install a new piece of software? (I know most people don't!). Whenever you obtain software, you don't owe it but you just did pay for the right to use it. When you sell that software (and even that is not always allowed) you are obliged to remove the software from your computer.


Bernard


Generally when you are presented a contract you read it and either agree or don't. If you agree fine. But those user agreements shoved down your throat concealed in a box can hardly be legal. Try this! Open the package and read the agreement. No way do you find the agreement on the outside. Just like no way do you learn what invasive copy protection is attached. Then take it back to where you bought it. Tell the clerk you did not agree to the terms and see how fast you get a refund on an open software box. Or better yet go to Staples rip open a box of any software. Tell the clerk you need to read the agreement before you buy. Request the use of a staples computer to view the agreement because it is in a pdf file on the disk and there is no printed copy in the box. 1 you get thrown out of the store 2 You get charged with destroying property.

Where is any contract considered legal when the terms are not disclosed prior to the closing of the transaction?


Edited by oldmariner (01/28/08 01:20 AM)

Top
#269937 - 01/28/08 07:47 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: oldmariner]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23186
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Bernard smile

I'm not sure that we're still on topic with this particular area of discussion so I won't be surprised if I get a slight nudge from a wandering Mod lol ... but ....

I must admit I don't read the software license before installing a game - and in any case I couldn't read and agree to any provisos in such a licence (as oldmariner so rightly points out) before handing over my cash to buy the game.

So, if the rights of the game's original "owner" demand respect, what about my rights as "the purchaser" if, having bought the game I take it home, unseal it, put the disk in my computer, read the licence details and decide ...."Oh dear, I can't agree to these conditions" .... ??
Can I demand the same respect and claim a full refund of the purchase price ??

I can see the need for rules and regulations in relation to software such as, for example, a Windows programme, where cooperation with Microsoft is unavoidable because they are willing to update their product free of charge as and when needed via an ongoing agreement with the purchaser. They will obviously impose stringent rules and regulations to protect that product.

But I don't understand why similar software rules should apply to the purchase and use of a game.

Being offered an "ongoing upgrade contract" as part of the purchase of a computer operating system and the "straightforward one off purchase" of a supposedly completed computer game are surely two totally different concepts ??

Mind boggling, to me, anyway !! woozy

Cheers.

Mad wave






_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

Top
#269951 - 01/28/08 08:10 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26893
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
Wandering in...actually, the licensing of PC games fits in with the discussion, I think.

If I had an intellectual properties lawyer at my beck and call, I'd consider weighing in on the licensing thing, but unfortunately I don't, so I'm clueless about it. wink

Hmmm. Maybe I'm clueless about the rest of these issues too!

It seems to me that when a portion of a business's customers are trying to steal their product, it is natural for the business to try to limit what is stolen from them. Here in the US, large clothing stores, for instance, still put those "sense-o-matic" tags on clothing. They don't do it because they think all their customers are thieves, and they know that some of the customers who ARE thieves have figured out a way around the tags. Stores do it because if they didn't, even more of their stock would be stolen.

Copy protection and key codes strike me as similar efforts. Yes, they are annoying, and it would be great if the legitimate customer didn't have to put up with them, but the majority of the business who make PC games have deemed them a necessity.

I suppose the question we're getting down to here is if the efforts to reduce theft for downloaded games are significantly more annoying than the efforts to reduce theft for games on disk.

Personally, I haven't found them to be more annoying, as I haven't yet downloaded a game and deleted it and then found that I couldn't download it again. Maybe I'll feel differently a few years down the road, but for now I'm pleased as punch to be able to download a game months before it's available on disk!

I would hazard a (somewhat educated) guess that about 70 percent of GameBoomers have broadband. This makes downloading an option for the vast majority of us, and I think that's why we're seeing more games offered as downloads.

We've worked at GameBoomers to support the developers and the publishers of PC adventure games because we want them to keep making and publishing games. It's disheartening to see adventure developers go out of business or switch over to making non-adventure console games (which don't seem to have nearly the same piracy problem).





Top
#270011 - 01/28/08 11:03 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Becky]
LindaMarion Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
Easey answer
Just stop to buy the download games until the develpers decide to make there games exactly the same as the CDs

Same product same pri ce same conditons. whats the diifrence?

At least 2 well known indy develpers have reproted that there games were pirate just 3 or 4 days after they release.
Sevral big games were availble from pirates 2 or 3 weeks before they were on sale

After
The downloas should be a few $s cheaper not more diffcult they do not have boxes manuels postage etc


Edited by LindaMarion (01/28/08 11:09 AM)

Top
#270023 - 01/28/08 11:27 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: LindaMarion]
MrLipid Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 12/30/00
Posts: 1946
Loc: Land of 10,000 Lakes
Anyone noticed how many previously download-only casual games are now shipping on CD?

For example, I think more than one of the MCF games has shown up on CD.

Which says to me if a game is popular enough, as measured by number of downloads, it will eventually show up on CD.


Top
#270034 - 01/28/08 12:03 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: MrLipid]
ron.etti Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 06/10/01
Posts: 1341
Loc: McClure P.A. USA.
Back in early 2000 the rumor was the Adventure game was dead.
You could read it on some reviews how the games were not
being made.
We have talked about it here many times and all were glad
to see they were wrong.
Could this be the stake that is driven in the Adventure game
heart?
I can't get DSL where i live .Down loading games is not a
opinion for me.
But i have a lot of oldies but goodie to play so i am not to
concerned....

Top
#270046 - 01/28/08 12:22 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: ron.etti]
gaily Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 04/24/06
Posts: 588
Loc: Ca.
My two cents: I have played both, and I'll tell you what it boils down to for me. For $30. or more, I should be able to replay any game that I have purchased on my computer when I am in the mood to do so. With a disc I don't have games sitting around taking up space on my hard drive, slowing down my computer etc. With a download, I don't believe that you can re-install a game (nevermind the time it takes to download vs. install a game from disc)once you have uninstalled it. The game Cleopatra, (a huge game)springs to mind. But I am thrilled with the many terrific adventure games that are out there to choose from! I just finished Evil Under the Sun, and plan to get back to GITS. Whoo-hoo! thumbsup
_________________________
gaily

Top
#270063 - 01/28/08 12:51 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Bernard]
chrissie Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4403
Loc: london uk
Originally Posted By: Bernard
Mad, did you ever read the software licenses when you install a new piece of software? (I know most people don't!). Whenever you obtain software, you don't owe it but you just did pay for the right to use it. When you sell that software (and even that is not always allowed) you are obliged to remove the software from your computer.
Bernard


Does this not apply to a lot of products particularly DVD/Video films & music CDs cassettes etc. You don't sign a lengthy agreement but most will state that they are copyright protected. So I think it is generally understood that although you might own the e.g DVD, CD with the film, music etc, the contents are not yours to use as you wish i.e you are restricted to personal use only & legally cannot copy, distribute or show/play in a public domain without seeking appropriate licenses to do so. To make a point though, once you've bought a film/music DVD/CD you are free to play it on any equipment & it's yours for life! Also I've bought music by download & have been able to burn it to disc which plays on a CD player.

My point is that license agreements on games should surely only refer to ownership of the content of the game rather than the game - if that makes sense! woozy In which case if you pay for a game via download it is yours & the publisher should ensure that you have the means to keep your purchase for life!

I can see the piracy problem with games that are ultimately going to be released on disc being available earlier by download, but the gamer does have the option to wait although I can see this is not going to be good news for the developer/publisher if no-one buys the download version to start with!

My main concern, as I know it is of a few other fellow GBers, is a possible trend towards games being available by download only.

As for pirated copies of games being available before their release - IMO this has got to be the work of someone involved in the production/testing of a game. smile

Top
#270164 - 01/28/08 04:40 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: chrissie]
LindaMarion Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
My main concern, as I know it is of a few other fellow GBers, is a possible trend towards games being available by download only.

I agree 100 %
it is completly as unfair as the piratse
the big Co.s are not intrested in us players amd posts and emails dont help
they understand 1 thing profits and if peopl wont buy theyll stop there teribly bad practises

Top
#270532 - 01/29/08 09:33 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: LindaMarion]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23186
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi smile

As my own final comment on this issue I would emphasise that I have always supported developers of adventure games and shown it by by spending some of my not very plentiful income on buying their games thumbsup

And of course I hope to continue to be able to support them - but if "purchase by download" ever becomes the only option, for whatever reason, I will be very sad AND sorely tested in my resolve yes

Cheers.

Mad wave
_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

Top
#270583 - 01/29/08 11:10 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
misa Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 11/04/07
Posts: 1372
Loc: PA, USA
I don't mind purchasing a download directly from a developer if they cannot find a North American distributor for the boxed version. I'd rather have access to a game I want to play rather than wait months to play it from a boxed version. Like others, I do mind if the installs are limited and whatnot. Having said that, I have purchased from Adventure Game Shop, directly from Kheops and Big Fish Games and will probably continue to purchase online downloads if the option is there (i.e., haven't boycotted).

I'm not sure if anyone's done some indepth analysis of the market and pirates but I don't think pirates are getting the games through online store downloads OR boxed retail releases. If the gaming industry is anything like the music industry, it's usually someone on the inside (at any stage of development, production, Q&A, pressing, distribution, etc.) who releases it to someone else and then gets put out on the internet. This happens in the music industry all the time since there are so many people involved in the final product.


Edited by misa (01/29/08 11:11 AM)

Top
#270611 - 01/29/08 12:11 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: misa]
LindaMarion Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 318
I don't mind purchasing a download directly from a developer if they cannot find a North American distributor for the boxed version.
i do mind and alot

I have payed online many games from Indys and i get the whole caboodle - cd box or gemcase, manuel or on cd etc
I absolutly refuse to buy downloads with all sorts of strings
There are very plenty of fair games to buy and play. why should I support the u8nfair develpers

If the gaming industry is anything like the music industry, it's usually someone on the inside (at any stage of development, production, Q&A, pressing, distribution, etc.) who releases it to someone else and then gets put out on the internet.

exactly the same with games especally from big co's. they pass through very many hands and some are on the www before the game is releasd




Edited by LindaMarion (01/29/08 12:12 PM)

Top
#270640 - 01/29/08 01:09 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Mad]
chrissie Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4403
Loc: london uk
I'm totally with you there Mad! I spend far more than I should on buying games new to support developers - I do prefer to buy disc versions but would also support the download option as well if I could burn the game to CD/DVD & install independantly on any system (a compatible one of course! lol) Otherwise I WILL boycott the games. The exception being if they turned up on BigFish - I would consider the full membership price of less than $7.00 per game a bargain price for 'rental'! smile

Top
#270807 - 01/29/08 07:34 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Becky]
Phoebe Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 12/17/07
Posts: 1541
Loc: Brazil
I not like for game of download. What it happens if you must format your pc? And i love buy my game and keep with box and manual.
For other side the download games is a good for people who live in countries where adventures they are not published.
Here in the Italy, not all games they are published.
Maybe for these people it is good. But i prefer buy my game with box and manual and to keep in my collection


Edited by Phoebe (01/29/08 07:39 PM)
_________________________
Yes,though i go through the valley of deep shade,i will have no fear of evil;for you are with me, your rod and your support are my comfort. Salmo23:4

Top
#271044 - 01/30/08 09:52 AM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Phoebe]
Karsten Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 10/25/06
Posts: 1460
Loc: Denmark, Europe
I would like to see the developers and publishers offering both download options and a cd or dvd version of the game. I would make it so that the download would be 5-10 US dollars cheaper than the cd or dvd version. I think this is necessary to pay for the extra shipping & handling etc. if you want a CD version of the game. Of course, if you decide to buy a downloadable version first, and then later on decided that you would like to get a cd or dvd version, you should only be paying the 5-10 US dollar extra for it.

This way, people who don't have an internet broadband conection can buy (adventure) games while people who want a cd or dvd version can get it, too.

Personally, I really like the feel of the dvd box in my hands, especially if the box is so tastefully done like the ones for Jade Empire:SE - as well as for The Witcher.

I'll always try to buy the dvd version of the game, so I, too, would be very sad frown if download became the only option for buying games, incl. adventure games.

/Karsten





Edited by Karsten (01/30/08 09:53 AM)
Edit Reason: layout
_________________________
Adventure gaming is fun smile


Top
#271141 - 01/30/08 12:41 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: Becky]
ces Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 11/30/01
Posts: 914
Loc: West Seattle, WA
I hate to say this, but I really believe that downloads are going to be the only available method of getting not only games but music, videos, books, etc. in the near future - especially since once the item is downloaded you can burn your own copy on a disk. Just last night I downloaded a screen shot program - $15 if you downloaded it, $35 if you wanted it on a disk - and you just get a disk too as this particular software doesn't come in a fancy box or even a jewel case - it just comes in a disk envelope. Even Prima only makes some of their strategy guides available via download - e.g. some Myst-related guides are downloadable only. And with the current feeling that using up global resources to make paper boxes - most of which end up in the landfill as LOTS of people don't even recycle - is wasteful, I think we'll see fewer and fewer of them.
_________________________
Christine

Top
#271152 - 01/30/08 01:07 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: ces]
chrissie Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4403
Loc: london uk
Originally Posted By: ces
I hate to say this, but I really believe that downloads are going to be the only available method of getting not only games but music, videos, books, etc. in the near future - especially since once the item is downloaded you can burn your own copy on a disk.


Hi ces, I don't know how many of the previous posts you have read, but the contention with downloadable games at the mo is that if you burn them to disc you still need to connect to the originator's website to re-install them & you are not free to install them on a newer or different system!

Top
#271210 - 01/30/08 03:13 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: chrissie]
gremlin Offline

Addicted Boomer

Registered: 11/06/01
Posts: 1613
Loc: Isle of Man
Originally Posted By: chrissie
but the contention with downloadable games at the mo is that if you burn them to disc you still need to connect to the originator's website to re-install them & you are not free to install them on a newer or different system!


That is a highly variable situation - not all downloaded games behave that way, it was raised as a specific comment on Kheops and the Adventure Shop:

Originally Posted By: oldmariner
Jenny both Kheops and the Adventure Shop told me via e-mail you have to be connected to their site each time you install the game. their server read the key/serial number to allow installation. And you can only install a game three times after that you need a new key.


That's not necessarily how all downloaded games work now, or will work in the future.

Gremlin

Top
#271234 - 01/30/08 03:54 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: ces]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35199
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: ces
And with the current feeling that using up global resources to make paper boxes - most of which end up in the landfill as LOTS of people don't even recycle - is wasteful, I think we'll see fewer and fewer of them.

I don't buy that argument at all. The junk mail I get in my mailbox every day puts the piddling amount in a game box or manual to shame. Besides, what happens when you get a pdf manual on disc and no paper manual -- and you need to refer to the manual while playing the game? You end up printing out the pdf manual, and that takes MUCH more paper than a peeny little game manual.

Originally Posted By: gremlin

Originally Posted By: oldmariner
Jenny both Kheops and the Adventure Shop told me via e-mail you have to be connected to their site each time you install the game. their server read the key/serial number to allow installation. And you can only install a game three times after that you need a new key.


That's not necessarily how all downloaded games work now, or will work in the future.

Gremlin


Seems to be the most common way at present though.

Top
#271246 - 01/30/08 04:17 PM Re: Downloads & The release of hard copy [Re: gremlin]
chrissie Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 4403
Loc: london uk
Hi gremlin, if you have a list of downloadable Adventure Games that can be burnt to independant discs pleeeeease! let us know!!! smile

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >


Who's Online
Key: Admin Global Mod Mod Staff  )
13 registered (Marian, flutist, Barb, RebKean, Draclvr, BrownEyedTigre, mj2c, curly, Pokey, 1 invisible), 99 Guests and 14 Spiders online.
Newest Members
GreenBoat, Spidermna133, kamoj, RebKean, gerald
8493 Registered Users