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#358066 - 07/10/08 10:53 AM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: Mad]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35623
Loc: southeast USA
Benedict,
The Twisty List is recommended adventure games of all time. If you've already played all the old ones and want something new, how is that different from having played all the new ones and looking for an older one you haven't played? Maybe you've played every single older game on the list, but not everyone has.

If you want a list that is restricted to newer games, it complicates the tallying. Where is the cutoff point for new games? 1 year? 2 years? 3 years? What about a game that was released in one part of the world a year before it was released in another? What about games that are out in Europe but still haven't been released in the US? And even if you can decide that for yourself, how do you explain it to everyone who is voting? People will buy a game they've never seen in the shop before and think it's new, when in fact it was first published over 5 years ago and the shop got it in as an overstock. So then you have the problem with some people following the instructions and other people not because of confusion about the release date. Do you throw out all the votes that don't fit your definition of new? Do you let the people who voted for something too old change their votes to something more recent? If you allow a borderline game for one person, do you allow other people to change their votes once they realize that game is allowed? How many votes do you give people? If you give them 20 votes each, you run the risk of getting a list of all recent games published instead of recent recommended games.

But if you want to start your own recommended recent games thread, and tally the results yourself, feel free. Just be aware that it's a lot of work and the end result won't suit everyone anyway.

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#358216 - 07/10/08 02:53 PM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: irishgirl1228]
wysewomon Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 3506
Loc: hunched over my computer
Thanks again flotsam! it was a real gas to see where my faves placed, as usual, and to be reminded of games I want to play but haven't got round to yet!

We really appreciate your doing this every year!

WW
_________________________
"So then he says it's enough to take aim! What's that supposed to mean?!?"


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#358263 - 07/10/08 04:30 PM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: wysewomon]
Benedict Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 06/02/99
Posts: 1053
Loc: Singapore
Jenny,

It is up to the person running the survey to define the parameters of the survey. With some thought all these issues CAN be dealt with.

In fact I DO appreciate the effort that Flotsam has put in to finalise the List. I'm proposing that we can do the list in another way, that is in my opinion more practical, more selective and possibly less tedious, but requires some careful planning and a change of style of doing things.

Just like most people here in this forum, I am for supporting the adventure game industry. These suggestions are made with the benefit of the AG industry in mind. If the regulars and the moderators here feel that this is not the direction to take, I can respect that.




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#358271 - 07/10/08 04:36 PM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: Benedict]
flotsam Offline
Staff Reviewer
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 3530
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Hi all,
What I will do is produce a few filtered lists reflecting some of the above.
Jenny is right, but give me a few days and I will have something done.
wave
_________________________
Quantity has a quality all of its own

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#358285 - 07/10/08 04:59 PM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: flotsam]
Benedict Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 06/02/99
Posts: 1053
Loc: Singapore
Hi Flotsam,

Perhaps you should take a break. I think you have already put in a lot of time and effort for this first list. This filtered list could be next year's project.

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#358418 - 07/10/08 09:30 PM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: Benedict]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35623
Loc: southeast USA
Poor Flotsam.
Just when you thought you were finished...

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#358424 - 07/10/08 09:42 PM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: Benedict]
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14829
Loc: Northeast NJ
Originally Posted By: Benedict
Hi Mad

Yes we all know that these old games are good, and every year we look at the same old games and they are still good. And it is the same old game that rules the charts. But why do we need to look at the same old games every year? We should give the new games a chance. The old games should step down from the charts and be honoured separate category - the hall of fame. They should not be competing with new games from young developers.



Here Here...I Totally agree ...Out with the Old on with the NEW...It's time thumbsup
_________________________
Luv Dar


GameBoomers
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#358448 - 07/10/08 10:28 PM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: Darleen03]
HeavenlyJoy Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 11/07/05
Posts: 771
Loc: usa
I am of the Catagory Jenny mentioned, I have done many recent games, but because I have come back to gaming after being gone almost 12 years, there is a whole section of games, I am going back and picking up, without this list, I would be lost, this list and the GREAT REVIEWS with it.
I have had a blast in the last few years, going back and playing some that are considered old to some, I Loved playing Grim Fandango, for ONE this year...
what I cant find on the store shelf, I usually can find in the Trade forum, I am just GRATEFUL FOR IT , and AM Glad for the oldies but goodies listed...
Marcia


Edited by HeavenlyJoy (07/10/08 10:29 PM)

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#358486 - 07/11/08 01:07 AM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: HeavenlyJoy]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23712
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Darleen2003 smile

"Here Here...I Totally agree ...Out with the Old on with the NEW...It's time "

As far as I'm concerned, that's just not what the spirit of flotsam's list was about when it was devised.
It was to give people the opportunity of saying which games (out of all those they had played) they had enjoyed the most and would recommend.
And that information is what flotsam still very kindly collates for us each year.

Perhaps those who wish to restrict such a list to only more recently released games should go about it themselves ??

Cheers.

Mad grin


_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#358487 - 07/11/08 01:09 AM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: HeavenlyJoy]
nickie Offline
Grand wizard of high mucky muck
Adept Boomer

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 13453
Loc: Texas
Well said Jenny. I would hope the list remains the same. There are so many new players that are informed all the time about newer games, but older games don't have the same coverage. Newer game lists can be found in many places, but the list here has been a wonderful tradition of mixing the new and the old. I sure appreciate that Flotsam has put up with us all this time!
_________________________
"How could drops of water know themselves to be a river? Yet the river flows on."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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#358501 - 07/11/08 03:02 AM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: nickie]
flotsam Offline
Staff Reviewer
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 04/24/00
Posts: 3530
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Perhaps you are right Benedict!
So a quick rejig, limiting it to 3 votes and above, gets you the following:


Games 2000-2008

55 Syberia
36 Syberia 2
29 The Lost Crown
28 Black Mirror
27 Keepsake
26 Dark Fall: The Journal
26 Dreamfall
25 Still Life
22 Myst 3: Exile
20 Secret Files: Tunguska
19 Culpa Innata
18 Runaway: A Road Adventure
15 Barrow Hill
15 Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened
19 Moment of Silence
18 Scratches
16 Nibiru
14 Jack Keane
14 Uru Chronicles
14 Return to Mysterious Island
13 Aura: Fate of the Ages
13 Darkness Within: In Pursuit of Loath Nolder
13 Sherlock Holmes: Nemesis/vs Arsene Lupin
11 80 Days
11 Riddle of the Sphinx: An Egyptian Adventure
10 Broken Sword 3: The Sleeping Dragon
10 Myst 4: Revelation
10 Mysterious Journey: Schizm
9 Dead Reefs
9 Dracula: Origin
9 Secrets of Da Vinci: The Forbidden Manuscript
9 Sentinel: Descendants in Time
8 Aura 2: The Sacred Rings
8 Runway 2: The Dream of the Turtle
7 Alida: The Enigmatic Giant
7 Dracula Resurrection
7 Last Half of Darkness: Shadows of the Servants
7 Rhem
6 Art of Murder: FBI Confidential
6 Echo: Secrets of the Lost Cavern
6 Mysterious Journey 2: Chameleon
6 Mystery of the Druids
6 Overclocked: A History of Violence
6 Post Mortem
6 Sherlock Holmes: Case of the Silver Earing
5 Agatha Christie: And Then There Were None
5 Agatha Christe: Murder on the Orient Express
5 Agatha Christie: Evil Under the Sun
5 Ankh: Reverse the Curse
5 Broken Sword 4: The Angel of Death/Secrets of the Ark
5 East Side Story
5 Destination: Treasure Island
5 Journey to the Centre of the Earth
5 Last Half of Darkness: Beyond the Spirit’s Eye
5 Paradise
5 Rhem 2: The Cave
5 Secrets of Atlantis
4 AGON: The Lost Sword of Toledo
4 Anacapri: The Dream
4 Daemonica
4 Dark Fall 2: Lights Out
4 Nancy Drew: Curse of Blackmoor Manor
4 Nancy Drew: Ghost Dogs of Moon Lake
4 Nancy Drew: The Secret of Shadow Ranch
4 Perry Rhodan: Myth of the Illochim/ Immortals of Terra
4 Riddle of the Sphinx 2: The Omega Stone
4 Sam and Max: Season 1
4 Undercover: Operation Wintersun
3 Atlantis 3: The New World
3 AGON: The Mysterious Codex
3 Ankh 2: The Heart of Osiris
3 Belief and Betrayal
3 Cameron Files: Secret at Loch Ness
3 Conspiracies
3 Diamonds in the Rough
3 Dracula: The Last Sanctuary
3 Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit
3 Jack the Ripper
3 Myst 5: End of Ages
3 Nancy Drew: Last Train to Blue Moon Canyon
3 Nancy Drew: Secret of the Old Clock
3 Rhem 3: The Secret Library
3 Safecracker 2006
3 Sam and Max: Season 2
3 Shadow of Destiny/Shadow of Memories

Games 2005-2008

29 The Lost Crown
27 Keepsake
26 Dreamfall
25 Still Life
20 Secret Files: Tunguska
19 Culpa Innata
15 Barrow Hill
15 Sherlock Holmes: The Awakened
18 Scratches
16 Nibiru
14 Jack Keane
13 Darkness Within: In Pursuit of Loath Nolder
13 Sherlock Holmes: Nemesis/vs Arsene Lupin
11 80 Days
9 Dead Reefs
9 Dracula: Origin
9 Secrets of Da Vinci: The Forbidden Manuscript
8 Aura 2: The Sacred Rings
8 Runway 2: The Dream of the Turtle
7 Last Half of Darkness: Shadows of the Servants
6 Art of Murder: FBI Confidential
6 Echo: Secrets of the Lost Cavern
6 Overclocked: A History of Violence
5 Agatha Christie: And Then There Were None
5 Agatha Christe: Murder on the Orient Express
5 Agatha Christie: Evil Under the Sun
5 Ankh: Reverse the Curse
5 Broken Sword 4: The Angel of Death/Secrets of the Ark
5 East Side Story
5 Destination: Treasure Island
5 Last Half of Darkness: Beyond the Spirit’s Eye
5 Paradise
5 Rhem 2: The Cave
5 Secrets of Atlantis
4 AGON: The Lost Sword of Toledo
4 Anacapri: The Dream
4 Daemonica
4 Perry Rhodan: Myth of the Illochim/ Immortals of Terra
4 Sam and Max: Season 1
4 Undercover: Operation Wintersun
3 AGON: The Mysterious Codex
3 Ankh 2: The Heart of Osiris
3 Belief and Betrayal
3 Conspiracies
3 Diamonds in the Rough
3 Dracula: The Last Sanctuary
3 Indigo Prophecy/Fahrenheit
3 Myst 5: End of Ages
3 Nancy Drew: Last Train to Blue Moon Canyon
3 Nancy Drew: Secret of the Old Clock
3 Rhem 3: The Secret Library
3 Safecracker 2006
3 Sam and Max: Season 2

I appreciate its imperfect, given that it takes no account of the games that might have received additional recommendations if eg games pre 2000 had been excluded from the initial vote, but if you want to focus on new games in terms of a play list it gives you that to a certain degree.
Plus, as I previously indicated, we have increased the number of votes from 10 to 20 over the years to take account of the growing catalogue of games. If we were going to limit it to, say, 2005 and above, we would likely reduce the votes back down to 15 or even 10, which makes these lists a little less unreal.
If I was an adventure newbie, I reckon I would want a list that included more rather than less, and to which I could apply my own filters, but thats just me.
I am not sure that there are too many games worth playing that aren't on the list at all, and if you apply the reasoning that they must all be worth your attention to some extent given that at least someone thought to recommend every game from all those that they had played, then perhaps you don't need much else.
But we can discuss tweaking the parameters prior to next year, and then proceed in accordance with the consensus.

wave
_________________________
Quantity has a quality all of its own

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#358576 - 07/11/08 08:58 AM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: flotsam]
MaG Offline
Administrator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 12/28/99
Posts: 66249
flotsam,

Thank you for doing all this work. We really appreciate it.
We can keep the way the List is done and leave the interpretations to the members. They have the statistics and can analyze it to their hearts content. laugh
It is next to impossible to please everyone. smile

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#358577 - 07/11/08 08:59 AM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: flotsam]
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26894
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
Thanks flotsam! wave

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#358619 - 07/11/08 10:39 AM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: Becky]
Benedict Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 06/02/99
Posts: 1053
Loc: Singapore
Thanks flotsam. You are a spreadsheet master. I am copying the filtered list for my own buying reference.

We can discuss this again next year and then decide how to do The List 2009. Once possible way to avoid nominations of games outside the release date range is to provide a list of candidates for the members to vote upon. We could ask the addicts with BAAG to help.

smile

I am copying the filtered list for my own reference.

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#358637 - 07/11/08 11:19 AM Re: The list 2008 - the results! [Re: Benedict]
nickie Offline
Grand wizard of high mucky muck
Adept Boomer

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 13453
Loc: Texas
Benedict, didn't you just see what MaG wrote? The list is going to remain the same, and you can continue to interpret as you wish from it in the years to come.
_________________________
"How could drops of water know themselves to be a river? Yet the river flows on."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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