With so many games coming out...So many opinions on what is what..

I would like to know your opinion on Just What Is An "Adventure Game"? And What Is a Puzzle game?

Myst & Rheem to me are Puzzle games not Adventure Games..Safe cracker is another one..I am sure there are many more...But some developers are listing their games as "Adventure" When they are truly not..

It tends to get very confusing...

I hate to disagree but Myst and Rhem are absolutely full fledged adventure games. While you may not like mechanical puzzles as opposed to inventory puzzles that does not make it a non adventure.

Perhaps the definition here may help you.

Ana

Here's where I disagree..there is no interaction in the game play of Myst..

You just solve puzzles..That to me is not an Adventure Game

What do you mean by "interaction" ??

You are usually interacting when you solve puzzles

Talking to people...Following a path..where someone says.. "Example" "You must follow this path"

Darleen -- do you mean that an adventure game has to have dialog trees (where you click to interact with a character)?

There's interaction with the gameworld in the Myst games, and the characters do talk to you, often through video segments (though you don't respond to them with words). There are also diary entries that tell the story, and/or let you know what the characters were thinking.

Just saw your post -- when Atrus hands you a book and says you must use it to capture Gehn -- that wouldn't count?

But speaking to other characters is only one form of interaction, as Wikipedia explains :

"Interaction is a kind of action that occurs as two or more objects have an effect upon one another. The idea of a two-way effect is essential in the concept of interaction, as opposed to a one-way causal effect. A closely related term is interconnectivity, which deals with the interactions of interactions within systems: combinations of many simple interactions can lead to surprising emergent phenomena. Interaction has different tailored meanings in various sciences. All systems are related and interdependent. Every action has a consequence."

Yes, Becky..Dialogue trees is what I mean...Not videos..

Mad...What made you come to the conclusion that "Heaven" was not an "Adventure Game" ?

Heaven did not have a storyline as such - which is a must for me in an adventure game - and I felt I was visiting the game rather than participating in it a lot of the time

That does suit many people. It just doesn't suit me

Tossing all games without dialog trees out of the genre? Woa. So no Scratches, Dark Fall, Barrow Hill, Amerzone, Riddle of the Sphinx? Or am I misremembering and they had dialog trees?

Becky..Good point ..

But you can't compare them to a full fledged mechanical puzzle game like Rhem..

In scratches you talked on the phone..You even talked to yourself

Darleen, you are confusing preferences vs. actual. They are all adventure games, that is a fact. You may prefer one with people interaction, just as some prefer 1st over 3rd person, but that does not change the fact that they are all adventure games.

Thanks, Mad...

I will add "No Story" to my list of what is NOT an Adventure Game

Myst is one of the best virtual *adventures* I personally had...

Adventure? What adventure? What plot? What interaction? Myst is a pure puzzle game.

Hi Darleen03,
To answer your question about my opinion on what is an adventure game and not to get into a debate about it, I totally agree with your opinion that Myst is not an adventure game. It never will be for me no matter what *they* say!
Yes, one interacts with the puzzles but that doesn't make an adventure out of it, but rather a puzzle game. If a gamer plays adventure games for the puzzles than by definition aren't they more interesd in puzzle games than adventure games?
So maybe they should be looking for puzzle games and leave adventuring to those who enjoy the fun of being a kleptomaniac and wondering how the inventory will come in handy somewhere, rather than trying to figure out what this switch will do over in another location to change whatever? I want to help someone so they can help me in return, not go wandering around trying to get some water system to work to solve some puzzle.

This is an awful long thread on a discussion about when is an adventure game not an adventure game. I prefer the fantasy, mystery type adventures over the, (for lack of a better term) Myst clones myself but it's in the eye of the beholder.

As long as there is exploration and graphic movement etc then it is not just a puzzle game.

So when is an adventure game not an adventure game? When I have to perform combat or acrobatics of some type to finish my quest (except for few hybrids that have also been called adventures)

This from one who still remembers playing text adventures but who can't remember the names of them.

Pandoras box is a puzzal game but also a story so I would say adventure .If there is no story to it and just puzzals then its a puzzal game in my eyes .Thats how I see it any way .If there is fighting in the game it is action adventure in my eyes .

Oooh, I love those discussions. I believe that people will never be able to agree on one definition.

For me Myst clones are very much adventure games.

But also Alone in The Dark or Redguard are adventure games because of the typical adventure game like situations and storytelling in them. I don't believe action elements make a game not an adventure game.

Action adventure games are what most game journalists call Tomb Rider clones - pure action titles in 3D and third person perspective. The term "action adventure" was born some time after Tomb Rider 1 was released as far as I know - it's just a bit older than the term "casual games".

You obviously didn't play the series, if you believe there's no plot in myst.
It's so narrow-minded to limit adventures only to walking characters with dialouge branches and inventory.
I personally adore Myst series for it's creation of one of the most immersive worlds I have ever gamed through, and this makes it more adventure-like than many other games.
To call it a "puzzle-game" is to diminish it to a series of random puzzles, while it's so much the opposite. The series is known for it's puzzles integration with the plot and story.
The plot is very very deep and branching. However, it does require a lot of reading and thinking, as oppose to characters telling you everything.
It's a different feel than most adventures, that's right, but to call it a puzzle game is ignorant. I accept obviously people not liking it for their own reasons, but let's not turn it to something it's not.

"An adventure game is a video game in which the player assumes the role of protagonist in an interactive story that is driven by exploration and puzzle-solving instead of physical challenges such as combat.[1] The term originates from the 1970s computer game Adventure[2][3] and relates to the style of gameplay pioneered in that game, rather than the kind of story being told.[1]"

This, from Wikipedia, is the description I have always held to as the true one

This is a nice definition because pretty much all kinds of adventure games fall under it. The problems start when puzzles in a game have some physical challenge aspect to them. How can you tell if it is the physical challenge or the puzzles that drive the story in such situations?

World of Goo falls under this definition, but I don't believe it's an adventure game. I'm of the opinion that an adventure game can't repeat the same mechanics in multiple puzzles - behind each puzzle must be some entirely different concept.

Yeah, the Myst series more or less defined the first-person point-and-click adventure, so excluding it from the genre altogether is a little much. The setting really is quite rich and detailed (enough for them to write three novels on it, at least), though as pointed out it's mainly relayed through various in-game books and in cutscenes. Not everyone's preferred method of delivery, but given the prevalent "power of the imagination/written word" theme, it's fair to assume you'll be doing plenty of reading.

There are dialogue-driven adventures and puzzle-focused ones; whether you're pulling levers or playing MacGyver, the basic concepts are still the same.

The strongest contender for "is it an adventure game?" for me would be the In Memoriam series (or Missing: Since January, Evidence: The Last Ritual). They have the compelling, meticulously detailed and researched story of an adventure game, but the actual game itself consists solely of scouring the 'net to solve abstract puzzles. Same with Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy (and its upcoming sequel, Heavy Rain): there's a strong emphasis on character and plot, but with a completely nonstandard control scheme and interface. Die-hard traditionalists will be quick to call it an "action-adventure" or some such, as there are "physical" sequences of sorts, yet the focus remains squarely on the story.

Hi Ascovel

I truly think the Wikipedia definition is about as good as you will get for the description of an adventure game

Obviously there are going to be instances where a person will say this or that game doesn't fit with what Wikipedia say. But what description in such a diverse field can be absolutely "all encompassing" ??

My thoughts regarding the specific point you make are that that it is the puzzle that drives the story and that whether or not you can meet the physical challenge required to complete the puzzle is a totally different issue

I am personally very happy with the Wikipedia definition because I feel it fits exactly what the adventure genre is intended to be cover

Cheers.

Mad

Hmm, I've heard of Myst-clones, but never any King's Quest-clones, or Space Quest-clones so that tells me something: There is a difference between Myst and adventure! Wikipedia mentions Myst as being "atypical" which means that it is not a "typical adventure" so there is a difference and it is that difference which is part of the debate of whether it is an adventure game or not. I say NOT, but that's my take on what I like or don't like in the games I play.

Personally, so long as I'm having fun, it doesn't matter what you call 'em!

You people crack me up!

"Myst-clone" was a term coined by critics -- it implicitly dimished Myst-style games.

Were some later adventure games modeled on Myst? Yes. Were some also modeled on King's Quest? Yes.

What about all those "Adventure clones?"

Adventure games are named after the game ***Adventure***, not because they are any more "adventurous" than other genres.

This seems to be a lot of arguing over semantics. Read the reviews of games before you purchase them. If the game you're interested in is primarily puzzle driven, and that type of game isn't your cup of tea, don't buy it.

Thank You All...For your opinions on what is an Adventure Game vs Puzzle Games...

Everyone has a different view on the subject.

To me an Adventure has to be more then Hard core puzzles. If a game has only puzzles to get from point A To point B..That is not in my opinion an Adventure Game..That is a Puzzle Driven Adventure... Oh Well...

Thanks, Again

"Puzzle driven Adventure" is not the same thing as "Puzzle game." It's fine to prefer one type of adventure game over another, but it's important we're all speaking the same language or readers will get very confused about what you're talking about.

Say everyone used their own personal definition of "Adventure game" based on what they liked or didn't like in a game --
Player 1 doesn't like dialogue, so no game with dialogue in it is an adventure,
Player 2 doesn't like fetch quests and chores, so no game with fetch quests in it is an adventure,
Player 3 has no sense of direction in games, so no game with a complex gameworld is an adventure,
Player 4 doesn't like managing large inventories, so no game with a large inventory is an adventure,
Player 5 doesn't like keyboard control, so no game that isn't point-and-click is an adventure,
etc.
Nobody would know what anyone was talking about.

Apologies for being overly simplistic but to me any game that offers an adventure is an adventure game.

But on a more technical level i would say that for me the defining aspects of the genre are an emphasis on exploration and storytelling and the absence of typical 'arcade' game elements. Any game that offers the former without (or with very little of) the latter is an adventure game.

Msyt offers thsoe two things and therefore to me would be an adventure game. The Ravenhearst games (as an example) don't offer them, and so would not be.

This is an "Adventure Game" to me:

(1) Story..Doesn't have to be a good story.
(2) Interaction. Whether it be characters or trees or plants or fish or a book or a phone conversation.
(3) Inventory. Big or small.
(4) Investigating places. Finding things..Discovery, to me is an "Adventure"
(5) Puzzles of any kind through out the game.

This is an "Puzzle game" to me:

(1) Puzzle after puzzle with beautiful scenic views. It should be label "Puzzle Adventure Game" because some might say you are on an Adventure Solving puzzles

Very similar to Darleen03 above.
I doubt that there is any simple definition of Adventure games since there are so many different types which are all Adventures. There are of course some exceptions which aren’t Adventures but are puzzle games and Action Adventures.
I actually prefer 3rd person games but I have no doubt that very many first person games are Adventures and that includes Myst and its several sequels
I think its ok for an adventure game to have 1 or 2 limited action sections or sections that need some speed or manipulation. Most adventures have a little of this but not too much or too difficult.
If they do have a lot of action sequences or several difficult ones then in my opinion it is an action-Adventure and not a pure Adventure.
I think that there are basically at least four aspects which determine whether a game is an adventure.
---- It must have a narrative of some sort. It does not necessarily have to be a very long story or a complicated one but it must be a decent one and not just an excuse for a story. Whether the narrative is carried forward mainly through dialogs or reading or inventory etc is not fundamental they can all be adventures of different sorts
---- The story must have some sort of definite ending to which the player strives to achieve. I does not have to be an absolute clear cut ending and can be somewhat ambiguous but it must have a definite end and the player must be tempted in whatever way to get there.
---- It must be basicly interactive and more than just a series of walkabouts admiring the scenery and locations etc
---- It must have some puzzles. Whether they are inventory based or individuals puzzles and what sort is again nor essential. But there must be a reasonable selection of puzzles for the player to overcome

There are some games which are just a series of different puzzles which are generally of different types not integrated into the game in any serious way and often of completely different types eg sliders, music puzzle. mazes. cryptograms, safes, torn up papers, codes, jig saws, etc etc.These games have no story at all or the flimsiest of stories just to create the feeling that it’s a game and not just a collection of puzzles.
Jewels of the oracle is a good example and Seventh Guest, Eleventh Hour although they have flimsy stories are nonetheless just a series of a couple of dozen different individual puzzles to overcome one by one , sometimes without even needing any order.
These and other such games are not Adventures but Puzzle Games.
That is not the case for Myst, Riven, Uru, and so on which inn my opinion are Adventures although of a different sort than many others

You've just described Myst, though the inventory consists of a single object.


That might describe certain casual games, though some of them have ugly views of dumps and decrepit buildings instead of scenic views.

Umm... hate to bring this up guys... (okay... well maybe I just want in on the fun)...

But is the adventure door securely shut on something like... say... 3 Cards to Midnight?

I know that hidden object games are certainly squarely in the "Casual" corner, but I was *so* excited to run out (or would that be "on" as in "on-line"?) and buy the NEW "Tex Murphy" game that I went and bought it even before I realized I was buying a download (I never did that before).

Anyhow, imagine my surprise to find a hidden object game!

As it just so happens... I *love* hidden object games and have since I was a kid with my mom finding all the hidden pictures in the "Highlights" magazine at the dentist's office. (I kid thee not!)

SO...

I loved playing 3 Cards to Midnight. I was disappointed that it was only hidden object puzzles (though I liked them), but the biggest thing to me was...

THE QUALITY OF THE WRITING!

Not only is the plot very good, but when you combine that with all of the intricacies of the story as revealed by the cards and their symbolism and meaning... the game is of very high quality in the fun that adventure gamers hold dear.

SO... sure... casually speaking... 3 Cards to Midnight can't be an adventure game because it's hidden object game (although, to be fair, there are some other nice puzzles too).

But... ya know?... sorry I can't find a better way to put this... but for writing?...

BEATS THE HECK OUT OF A LOT OF ***ADVENTURE*** GAMES I'VE PLAYED!

Sorry for shouting but I had to get that out of my system (or it would crash for sure).

And so finally, my fellow gamers, my humble point is this:

Dig down deep.
What do you feel when you are playing an "adventure" game?
I feel like I'm saying, "Mommy, tell me a bedtime story-- and let me guess and figure out how it goes at parts along the way."

Shaherezade was truly the mother of all adventure games, and she used a thousand and one puzzles.

I think that many HO games are not at all good but some are really excellent and very many folk love them.
But I don't think that they can be rated as either Adventure or puzzle games.
I would say that they are in a third category namely Hidden Object or Casual games.

I suppose some of the more sophisticated could be called Hidden Objec Adventure or Hidden Object Puzzler or something just as some games are called Action Adventures.

Hey everyone,

Remember this discussion? Already while it was going on I was thinking about writing a larger article on this topic, but only now have I finally done it. If you decide to read it, hopefully you'll find it an interesting addition to this thread.

Be warned though: I'm rather strict in my view about what an adventure game is.

Thanks, Ascovel

I did enjoy the read..Many good points made

Adventure Game defintions are certainly subjective. When I first got into gaming (2001) I did so with Riven and Myst and played only similar games. I didn't even know that 3rd person games existed, never mind that they were considered adventures.
I think the difference between puzzle games and puzzle-centric adventures is the exploration and interaction. Hence, I wouldn't consider games like Pandora's Box or Jewels of the Oracle an adventure, but the Professor Layton games would be.

Ascovel -- is there an example of a game that most people would think is an adventure game, but that the puzzles are of a logical-self-contained type that would put it outside your definition of an adventure game?

Does this make sense?

Sentinel might be such a game, Becky. (Though I think quite a lot of people would agree with me in this case)

By my definition Sentinel is a puzzle game rather than an adventure game. It has a story and great looking locales, but the puzzles are purely puzzle game style.

But overall the definition was meant to be broad and inspire innovation in puzzle design.

Interesting. Ascovel, have you ever played Big Brain Wolf? I'm still trying to figure out if it could qualify as an adventure game -- you can click on items in the environments to get information about them, but you can't pick anything up. And all the puzzles are stand-alone mini-games.

I haven't played Big Brain Wolf. Again, it would depend on the puzzles in my opinion.

I'd love to see more of new kinds of puzzles that tease the same parts brain regions that the typical inventory puzzles do.

I've been gaming for just about 25 years now, so I think my definition of the genres has become pretty strict over the years.

My definition of an adventure game is:

You play as a protagonist that exists in the game world.

You are either presented with a story, or you uncover it as you go along.

There can be action sequences, though I'd prefer if they were left out (I play adventure games to relax, not to push a lot of buttons)

You solve puzzles along the way. It doesn't really matter if they're inventory based or part of the world. However, and here's my most important distinction between puzzle and adventure, these puzzles have to be a part of the game world, actually be integrated into the world you're exploring, and not just there for the sake of having a puzzle.

I would definitely consider the Myst series adventure games. They were a bit atypical, since they didn't really have any of the traditional dialog we were used to. You didn't participate in conversations, you just listened in on them. Where the Myst games differed from other games at the time, were the style of the puzzles you solved. They were based very much on logic and math, and not the more traditional 'item A+B=result'. However, they were always integrated into the game world, and not just there for the sake of having a puzzle. Oh, and by the way, the Myst series has a very deep storyline, it's just not presented the way we're used to. You're not part of the story, but it's your job to uncover it.

A game like Big Brain Wolf is, for me at least, very much a puzzle game. While some of the puzzles you solve are loosely integrated with the task at hand, most of the time they're just there for the sake of having a puzzle. Definitely not a bad game, but doesn't fit my definition of an adventure game.

Anyway, that just about covers it I think

The one word that keeps coming up when writing about Myst is that the puzzles are "logical" and right there is where I claim that means it is not an adventure, but a logical puzzle game with a story attached to the puzzles. A true adventure game isn't logical in any way, shape or form, because the puzzles are based on imagination and intuition (or hunch) and mind-reading (trying to figure out what the game maker was thinking when the solution isn't the same as one would expect) which can be somewhat annoying, but fun when its solved, even if one needs a walkthrough to get it. And yet another definition for adventure could be that it is a "light-hearted story mixed with danger, humor, lots of things and people to interact with and just a lot of fun to play. No mind-bending, boring puzzles which would appeal to a rocket scientist and a story line that is like reading history as it happened who knows when and only found in books. Well, that's my take and I'm hanging on to it.

Only some of the Myst puzzles are purely logical, most require imagination, intuition and mind-reading (like you say).

Also, while I really like your description of adventure game gameplay, I strongly disagree that "a true adventure game isn't logical in any way, shape or form". For example:

Scissors are a tool to cut flat, thin things, therefore I can cut this flat, thin object with them.

Thinking logical like that is essential to adventure games - it just isn't enough, because adventure game challenges go beyond that.

Please do not get so derogatory. It's fine for you to not like logic puzzles, but I love them, and I'm no rocket scientist.
I'm tired of this Myst vs. other adventures discussion (every forum has it's moments and there seems to be quite a few of them right now). You can take your stand, but don't belittle us gamers that like these games, and constantly feel like we have to defend them.

Right on, colpet !!!!

Shucks, I was just speaking for myself and how I feel and suddenly it seems that some of you are thinking that I somehow mean YOU. Why are you taking it so personally? This is a forum for different viewpoints and I didn't trash your POVs, so it would be nice if you didn't trash mine!

Sierramindy -- some people take their gaming seriously, and it's not that much of a stretch to feel that you were criticizing their point of view.

Trashing is something we try to avoid. Nobody likes to have to clean up afterwards.

I'm locking this thread, while offering up the usual "let's agree to (nicely) disagree" statement.