Hey,

I've just watched the full 35 minutes of this interview with Tim Schafer and Ron Gilbert...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&...notation_202853

It's a new release as a part of that double fine project.

I recommend it - but it has nothing to do with what I meant to write about. At a certain point Tim Schafer mentions that when he plays a game and uses a walkthrough/solution guide once - he keeps referring to it again and again, which causes him to enjoy the game less.

I know some of you players print out the walkthroughs and play the game like a list of intructions, so what I say probably doesn't really hold in your case - but - isn't what Tim said extremely correct?
This is totally what happens to me with walkthroughs. The more I use them, the more I use them. I remember being young (like 10, and not an aging 25 years old guy like today) and not having any idea what walkthroughs are - I could practically spend WEEKS being stuck on something. Games would take me MONTHS to finish.

This doesn't happen anymore. And I'm a puzzle fan. However, when I get stuck for more than a couple of hours, it's rare that I won't turn for help. And it lasts much less with games I don't really like/enjoy.

That's why the hints forum here is so important for me. I like getting hints - there's something much less addictive in it. A walkthrough - once you've gone black you rarely go back :-)

I also really agree with what Ron Gilbert says regarding the modern built-in hint systems. It just shows a certain flaw in the game, I think, when the game doesn't supply enough hints of its own. Different players, different abilities, I know, but there are other ways to solve it (like Monkey Island 3, with two difficulty levels, or simply lots of hints that are thoroughly hidden in the game and will be seen by different players on different occasions).

Anyway, I wanted to:
1. Post the video for those of you who have interest, it's really interesting.
2. Ask for your opinion regarding those matters!

Cheers :-)
Tomer

I saw the video, very interesting indeed. I thought what Ron Gilbert said about pixel hunting was especially intriguing. They apparently had no idea that gamers would have trouble finding some of these hotspots.

I find that if I consult a walkthrough and the puzzle seems illogical, then I'm more likely to consult a walkthrough again. If I consult a walkthrough and have a head-slapping "I should have understood that!" moment, I'm not more likely to use a walkthrough again.

There are gamers of all types. A few may enjoy being stuck for hours or days. But I suspect that the majority like to progress in a game during a typical play session.

Hints require a live person who dedicates their time to helping people. Without walkthroughs, game companies would have to hire people just to help their customers get through the game. Figuring out exactly where people are in a game, and telling them just the right thing to help them is a lot of work. The Hint forum here can be swamped when a popular new game releases. Without walkthroughs the requests for help would likely be overwhelming.

Different difficulty levels? Great! Hint systems? Great! You can always choose the hardest difficulty or choose not to use the hint system. Better to have options than not to have options.

You're in charge of your own self-control in terms of choosing when to look at a walkthrough.

Mmm, yes, but I still think a really good game should be able to provide enough hints for the average player without having pop ups that tell you what to do.
It may sound like a dumb solution - but I would really just like it better if there was some "witch" or something you could go to "in the game" to get hints. I think some games actually did it.
What now springs to my mind is URU, the cleft, where that guy in the beginning keeps giving you hints for cloths you haven't yet found - it's your choice if you want to hear him, but it's still in the game world and not some outside mechanism...

I'm addicted to w/t's but it makes me enjoy the games that much more b/c then I don't have to give up on them after I get stuck. Actually, w/t's keep me buying more games all the time, otherwise, if it weren't for me finding out that w/t's actually existed (was told by the dealer at Electronics Boutique at the local mall in 2001) I would have probably abandoned playing adventure games back then, tried to get interested in something totally different and I wouldn't be where I am today (going to school to become a computer tech b/c playing games and being able to finish/win them makes me want to fix computers - in fact when I got Alter Ego in Aug 2010 from Jenny100 here at GB I developed the desire to fix computers) and my life would have been totally different, in fact, I might not been living at home with Queen AlienBZ/Cruise or posting messages/getting help nor even be on these gaming/computer message boards on the internet nor met all of the nice people/have any online friends from these boards had it not been for w/t's.

Tomer -- Zandi gives out hints? Seriously? How'd I miss that? I've only played the game, what 15 times!

"Mmm, yes, but I still think a really good game should be able to provide enough hints for the average player without having pop ups that tell you what to do."

But how does one define an "average" game player

I don't print out walkthroughs myself but I do like to know they are available should I get badly stuck.
[Although I will always come to Gameboomers for just a hint first, in case that will spur me on to solving the dilemma.]

So Gameboomers for me offers help in the layers I prefer .. and next best is UHS.
[ No friendly folk to chat with there, though !! ]

And what does it matter if some people enjoy battling to the death over a puzzle whilst others don't ??
Folks enjoying themselves how they want to is what's important, surely ??

@Becky: yes! He has a collection of 7 hints for every cloth, depending on which ones you've got left :-)

I'm not against walkthroughs of course, I just mean they've changed a lot the way I play games. And it really is like that, that once I start consulting a walkthrough once or twice I just keep being tempted to read further in it, because it's so available and easy and... tempting!
For example, the Rhem series, which I really like (terrible plot but amazing puzzles) - I never finished any of them alone... and I always regretted having peaked in a walkthrough. I promised to myself, when Rhem 5 comes out, I'll never use a walkthrough! :-)

I also prefer UHS rather than walkthroughs (after the forums), but sometimes it's just too tempting not to use. It was just a whiny post. Maybe I'm curious to know how everyone deal with it - I find myself often regretting having peaked at a walkthrough after doing it.

Frogwares games give you graduated hints if you access them but it's your choice. I sometimes use them since I'm an impatient soul and don't seem to have the determination that kept me doggedly trying to figure things out which I had back when I played my very first (and most favorite) game, Grim Fandango. I know the argument could be made that having been forced to work at it (I didn't know such a thing as a walkthrough existed) could be why I love this game. Maybe so. If the game itself is so interesting you can't give up, you keep going, IMO, walkthrough or no walkthrough.

Perhaps the ability to get hints from the game is a cop-out but it's also very likely a recognition that a frustrated player is one that's not likely to finish the game or to come back and buy more of them. As things are now, developers struggling to get games published, anything that helps adventure games sell is probably reasonable, except to the diehards who constantly gripe about how easy the games are. They never stop to realize that these are games and not exercises in will or brainpower for most people. And they tend to ignore the fact that they don't have to use the extra help.

Most games I've played don't have puzzles as tough as Grim's, (forget Myst, I'm not going there) and in general, those I like these days are linear (as Grim is not) and the best for me make gameplay close to effortless by the way they're constructed. It's when I have no clue what to do next and/or am misled by the game into thinking it's one thing when it's actually another that I resort to a walkthrough if I can't figure it out. Or when I run into a puzzle that requires a degree in math or physics. I have no shame at all about lifting the answer from a walkthrough then. I've often marveled at MaG's ability to conquer those. Most of the time, though, I use her walkthroughs like a Hint button, cautiously making sure I don't get more than I need to help me over a hurdle. If I like the game I'm extremely glad help is available. If I have one of those head-slapping moments Becky referred to once I've peeked, I'm like her and much more likely to try harder to figure something out on my own when I run into trouble again.

Anyway, I think one reason Tim and Ron were surprised that it was hard to find the hotspots in some of their games is that they lived them for months and probably knew every inch of each game long before it was released. One tends to forget that.

Btw, Tomer, when you get my age (you are a mere chick, man, hardly out of the shell!) you won't worry at all about giving that last brain cell some support.

Off to watch that video,

Gil.

"I didn't know such a thing as a walkthrough existed"

They didn't when I first started playing ....
So if you couldn't solve a puzzle, well tough !!

"Perhaps the ability to get hints from the game is a cop-out but it's also very likely a recognition that a frustrated player is one that's not likely to finish the game or to come back and buy more of them."

I absolutely agree

"when I run into a puzzle that requires a degree in math or physics. I have no shame at all about lifting the answer from a walkthrough "

And I absolutely agree with that also

Anyway, I think one reason Tim and Ron were surprised that it was hard to find the hotspots in some of their games is that they lived them for months and probably knew every inch of each game long before it was released. One tends to forget that.

AND that

"Most games I've played don't have puzzles as tough as Grim's,"

Woah .... But not that !!!!
Sounds like you've got some catching up to do, traveler !!

Well...maybe. I did say 'games I've played'.

Tell me you found the racetrack puzzle easy. Go on. The roulette wheel almost drove me nuts though somebody (you?) might have whizzed through it. Yeah, but was it a piece of cake for you to figure out how to keep the Bonewagon from blowing up? I'll admit that it took me no time at all to win the fight with Domino. Brief moment of brilliant insight.

I don't like games that are primarily puzzles which have nothing to do with the inventory. Or games of solitary wandering. So, I'll never be befuddled by Myst or anything like it if I can help it. Those puzzles may be a lot harder. If so, you puzzle lovers are welcome to them.

Gil.

Thanks for such a thought provoking post, Tomer. You definately have made me consider the topic. I did use to use UHS a lot more, and maybe I will check it out BEFORE using any full walkthrough next time as you may have a point about the tendency to be over reliant on them once you start using one. However, there is one big caveat and that is, I often find I am playing a game and a puzzle does not make sense at all, and it is not that I cannot work it out, but that the way of solving it is a bit strange/ unintuitive. In this case I would give up playing the game were I not to find a walkthrough. The reason I stopped using UHS was they did not often have the game I was playing. But will def. look next time first as I had forgotten all about them. Thanks again for post.

Interesting topic Tomer. Like you I find these days that once I consult a walkthrough I seem to keep on doing it - even when it's not necessary and then it does tend to spoil the game.

I know a couple of people who never even start a game until they've actually printed out a walkthrough, personally it seems a bit of a waste of buying the game in the first place but everyone is different.

Like someone else mentioned, I too never used to even know that there was such a thing as a walkthrough and we bought our first computer around 1992 or 3 with Monkey Is.1 included we didn't even have a modem so couldn't have consulted one anyway (think there may have been manuals available to buy perhaps. Anyway talk about getting addicted to adventure gaming straight away, but the time it took to get through that game was months from memory other games bought around that time just as long if not longer. In fact when I bought Tex Murphy Under a Killing Moon, my daughter and I were both playing it, she went overseas a few months later and we'd not finished the game, it took me 12 months to complete it - all because of a darn pixel hunt somewhere out between some buildings!!! Nowadays I'd have got onto the net and found a walkthrough! How things have changed - and probably for the better I suppose, don't seem to have the patience to solve everything anymore!

Becky I agree with you about having a choice of difficulty levels in a game. I would so like to play a difficult game in "easy" the first time so I can enjoy the game and get thru it all. As I master the controls and gain knowledge of what to do I will play again in a more difficult level.

I use walkhroughs a lot, have been since I played the early Sierra games. Simply because of the music puzzles and the color schemes puzzles (I'm color blind and my musical ear is not that great either). In Black Mirror 1, there is a certain puzzle that requires you to fill a bassin or pool or drain it? for water. Had to use a walkthrough as well.

Sometimes, like so many others here, I've a glimpse of light tellimg me what to do. And sometimes, the puzzles are really, really poorly designed - so I have to use a walkthrough.

Anyway, I'm happy that today I can hit space to get to the hotspots rather quickly and examine them.

Thank you all for sharing your opinions :-)

Btw what I found a little disappointing in the interview, is that Ron Gilbert speaks almost only of Monkey Island. I would really like to hear his opinions regarding other games since the 80's (or so)... can it be that he really dislikes alll games ever created since then??