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#888856 - 05/20/13 01:13 PM Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi smile

My WinXP machine had a funny episode last week - whilst I was installing an old game.
It suddenly just crashed to Desktop.

It IS a 9 year old machine but apart from this sudden blip is behaving as perfectly as it has always done.

Anyway, since the crashing incident, it has been taking over 10 minutes from my switching the machine on to my actually getting to a Windows screen I can use !! shocked
[5 minutes to reach the Welcome Screen and then another 5 minutes before I have cursor control at the Windows screen.]

My "computer" Son in Law is not available right now so I wondered if any of you had any suggestions a total non-techie like me could try ??

Cheers.

Mad crazy
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#888862 - 05/20/13 02:37 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
lanlynk Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 292
Loc: Alaska
Have you uninstalled the game that initially caused the problem?

I guess some "non-techie" things you could do would be to get rid of that faulty installation. I'd use CCleaner so that I could uninstall the game and then remove any registration conflicts too. Do a general disk cleanup also. If you don't have CCleaner, just use Windows' Add/Remove Program.

If you have a lot of old, unused programs, you might want to remove those also through add/remove programs or through CCleaner. And then try defragging the hard drive if you haven't done that in awhile.

Or there's the System Restore option if you're familiar with that process. Choose a restore point from before you tried installing the game.

PS: If you never actually got that game installed, I'd opt for the System Restore option. Then do disk cleanup and defragging.


Edited by lanlynk (05/20/13 02:48 PM)
_________________________
"Dragons were never gone. They were just invisible and very, very quiet." ~ M'aiq the Liar (Skyrim)

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#888884 - 05/20/13 04:21 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
InlandAZ Offline
Glitches Forum Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 6743
Loc: Arizona
One of the first things I'd run is CHKDSK - peruse the link below, it describes how to run it on XP.

Windows XP CHKDSK (Disk Error Checking)

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#888937 - 05/20/13 08:21 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35208
Loc: southeast USA
I agree with Inland.
I suspect the problem is with the aging hard drive.
Nine years is quite old for a hard drive, and it may be starting to fail.

Windows files could have been damaged during the crash, or the same problem that caused the crash could also be causing the slow boot.

So the first thing to do is check the integrity of the drive with something like chkdsk. You'll want to do a surface scan (scan for bad sectors).

I usually run chkdsk by opening a Command Window and typing

chkdsk C: /R

(assuming C: is the drive the OS is installed on). The computer will need to reboot before it can run the scan with the /R attribute.

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#888983 - 05/21/13 01:55 AM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Jenny100]
Homer6 Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 5460
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Since the problem occurred while installing a game, it would be logical to uninstall the game first to see if this was indeed the problem.

If uninstalling the game didn't fix the problem, then run chkdsk. If testing isn't done in the reverse order of actions, it's possible to miss something very simple causing the problem.
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#889065 - 05/21/13 12:10 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Homer6]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi All - And thank you for responding smile

Oh, the first thing I did after the crash was look for renmants of the game - but there weren't any. I don't think any of it got installed.
However, I did a search from the Start Menu and also ran Ccleaner. But there wasn't anything.

I keep the drives "tidy" (and defrag them fairly regularly) on all my machines and don't leave old or unused programmes on any of them.

Anyway .... I've just spent all afternoon running CHKDSK on each of the drives.
[I have three on my XP machine - plus the CD Drive.]
But all came out clean.

I suppose a System Restore is the only option left but for reasons unknown (to me, anyway lol) System Restore has always failed on my XP machine.
However, I suppose I could give it another go.

The mystery is that apart from the exceedingly slow Boot Up process, everything is working perfectly. All my installed games are running without a problem and my Internet access is fine.

Thanks again, anyway, for your help.

Cheers.

Mad duh
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#889093 - 05/21/13 02:22 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
lanlynk Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 292
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Mad
... Oh, the first thing I did after the crash was look for renmants of the game - but there weren't any. I don't think any of it got installed.
However, I did a search from the Start Menu and also ran Ccleaner. But there wasn't anything.

... I suppose a System Restore is the only option left but for reasons unknown (to me, anyway lol) System Restore has always failed on my XP machine.
However, I suppose I could give it another go.

When you ran CCleaner, did you also use its Registry Cleaner tool? One of the main reasons for slow boot times, along with startup programs running in the background, is registry errors. If the game only partially installed, there could be some hidden remnants causing problems. When you say you ran CCleaner, what specifically did you run? General Cleaner? Uninstaller? Registry Cleaner?

Some programs (Zone Alarm, for one) can interfere with System Restore. Try running it in Safe Mode. Also, here's a link to Windows support on troubleshooting System Restore. It gives several steps you can go over to see what might be causing your problem with SR.

System Restore Troubleshooting

Good luck! At least the PC is ok once it's booted. smile


Edited by lanlynk (05/21/13 02:26 PM)
_________________________
"Dragons were never gone. They were just invisible and very, very quiet." ~ M'aiq the Liar (Skyrim)

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#889095 - 05/21/13 02:38 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
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Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35208
Loc: southeast USA
Does it also take a long time to boot to Safe Mode?

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#889098 - 05/21/13 02:59 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Jenny100]
lanlynk Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 292
Loc: Alaska
Safe Mode should not take as long as a regular boot because it doesn't load all the "unessential" programs, just the few needed for troubleshooting. It helps you isolate what processes might be causing issues.

Mad:
If you've never seen Safe Mode, you'll also notice that the display resolution is very low. Don't panic! It's suppose to be that way, but it does look weird, very Windows 95. lol

Do you know how to boot in SM? When your computer restarts, before Windows loads, hit the F8 key. You'll be given the option in a DOS-like screen for boot modes. Some computers will require you to use a different key than F8. You should see it written for "start up options" in the lower left (usually) of your initial load screen.

Edit: LOL, Jenny, I just realized you were probably addressing your question to Mad. Sorry. oops


Edited by lanlynk (05/21/13 03:31 PM)
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"Dragons were never gone. They were just invisible and very, very quiet." ~ M'aiq the Liar (Skyrim)

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#889104 - 05/21/13 03:35 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
InlandAZ Offline
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Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 6743
Loc: Arizona
What game were you installing? Older games, especially DOS games, often modified configuration files in the root of the hard drive. If you're attempting to load a driver that's incompatible with XP it may cause a delay (although I doubt it would add up to 10 minutes).

Tap F8 when you boot the machine. At the login Menu select Enable Boot Logging. You can locate the log as C:\BOOTLOG.TXT - send it to us in an email we can go through it.

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#889423 - 05/23/13 11:57 AM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: InlandAZ]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
Sorry !!!!
I haven't managed to have any computer time since I last replied so all is the same !! wink

[I'll have to get back to you if I manage to try any of your suggestions.]
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#889476 - 05/23/13 05:39 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35208
Loc: southeast USA
I'm still wondering which old game did this, and (if Inland's idea is right) what it could have installed that caused the problem.

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#889566 - 05/24/13 03:50 AM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Jenny100]
lanlynk Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 292
Loc: Alaska
I had an experience once after uninstalling an old game on an XP computer. I didn't notice a problem as such, but I'm pretty sure some files from the game remained behind in the system somewhere.

The game was The Dark Eye, the old 1995 horror one based on Edgar Allan Poe stories. Anyway, the game left a couple of registry keys that I could never seem to get rid of. Tried many times with CCleaner and deleted them manually too. They just kept respawning.

Kind of creepy really. Every time I used CCleaner, there was The Dark Eye again. scared
_________________________
"Dragons were never gone. They were just invisible and very, very quiet." ~ M'aiq the Liar (Skyrim)

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#889644 - 05/24/13 01:17 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: lanlynk]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
A few answers for you, at last !!!! Cheers. Mad smile

***************

When you ran CCleaner, did you also use its Registry Cleaner tool?

Yes. I always use "Scan for Issues" and then "Cleaner".

Does it also take a long time to boot to Safe Mode?

Yes. It will do.
When I switch the machine on, the first screen immediately appears but nothing else happens for more than five minutes - after which the boot-up actually starts. The booting up carries on for several more minutes, eventually taking me to the Welcome Screen. And it's several more minutes after THAT before I have cursor control.
[All minutes not seconds !!]

Do you know how to boot in SM?

Yes. I've done that many times.

Tap F8 when you boot the machine. At the login Menu select Enable Boot Logging. You can locate the log as C:\BOOTLOG.TXT - send it to us in an email we can go through it.

I located that via Search from the Start Menu (I forgot to do it before) but I can't "copy and paste" it to anything. So how would I get it to you in an email ??

I'm still wondering which old game did this, and (if Inland's idea is right) what it could have installed that caused the problem.

I had just installed the latest XP Installer for Gabriel Knight Sins of the Fathers (from the Sierra Help site) and, as per the instructions, was part way through installing the actual game from the CD when the crash occured.
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#889647 - 05/24/13 01:32 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
InlandAZ Offline
Glitches Forum Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 6743
Loc: Arizona
Quote:

I located that via Search from the Start Menu (I forgot to do it before) but I can't "copy and paste" it to anything. So how would I get it to you in an email ??


Open the file with Notepad, select Edit, Select All - from there you should be able to paste it into a message.

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#889657 - 05/24/13 02:42 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: InlandAZ]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
Thanks, Inland.

I've done that and now sent the email to you laugh
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#889669 - 05/24/13 03:19 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
InlandAZ Offline
Glitches Forum Moderator
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Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 6743
Loc: Arizona
Nothing obvious in the bootlog - there are no timestamps, but at least nothing failed to load.

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#889672 - 05/24/13 03:24 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: InlandAZ]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
So, no quick fix for me ?? I am distraught !!!! rotfl Thank you VERY much for looking, nonetheless, InlandAZ yes
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#889679 - 05/24/13 04:00 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35208
Loc: southeast USA
When it's booting, is the hard drive light on solid or does it flicker? Does it go out for extended periods of time?

If it stays solid, it's probably trying to read from a bad sector. If it's flickering, it's reading files. If the hard drive light goes out for extended periods, Windows must be doing something unrelated to the boot drive.

You say you have 3 hard drives in the computer.
Do you install your games on one of the hard drives other than the XP drive?

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#889695 - 05/24/13 05:28 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Jenny100]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Jenny100 smile

I think I only have two actual "physical" drives. One partitioned into C and D and a separate, second, very big one, where I install my games (if I'm given that option). That one is labelled F.
[My CD DRive is E.]

I'll make a note to myself to watch the hard drive light and see what it does the next time I boot up - and then let you know. But it will probably be tomorrow now.

[As I said in a post higher up in this thread, I ran a separate CHKDSK on each drive and each one came up as clear. Shouldn't any possible bad sectors have shown up then ??]

Thanks.

Mad wave
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#889716 - 05/24/13 06:48 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
traveler Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 3208
Loc: Rivellon
Mad,

Have you tried again to do a System Restore? If your XP won't do it, that sounds like a problem of equal import to me. Have you ever tried to find out why it won't?

Gil.
_________________________
"Best not to think about it. I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought."

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#889730 - 05/24/13 08:51 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35208
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Mad
I ran a separate CHKDSK on each drive and each one came up as clear. Shouldn't any possible bad sectors have shown up then ??

A hard-to-read sector won't necessarily show up in chkdsk as bad, even if it takes a lot longer to read than a healthy sector. A hard-to-read sector may not be totally bad, but it's getting there.

Do you know if your XP hard drive has S.M.A.R.T. (Self-Monitoring, Analysis and Reporting Technology) capability? If it does, you might try to find out how many sectors have been remapped.

Originally Posted By: Wikipedia
Today, most errors are detected and corrected by the disk drive -- sometimes by remapping a failed sector of the disk to a spare sector without the involvement of the operating system. This "silent correction" can lead to other problems if disk storage is not managed well, as the disk drive will continue to remap sectors until it runs out of spares, at which time the temporary correctable errors can turn into permanent ones as the disk drive deteriorates. S.M.A.R.T. provides a standardized way of monitoring the health of a disk drive, and there are tools available for most operating systems to automatically check the disk drive for impending failures by watching for deteriorating S.M.A.R.T. parameters.

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#889757 - 05/24/13 11:12 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Robert Gault Offline
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Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 1265
There is one other possibility, since it looks like your drives may be OK. Perhaps your anti-virus program has changed it's startup procedure to include scanning more of your drives. This can happen if you have been regularly updating your anti-virus program.

Check the settings to see what is scanned during the boot process. You might be able to safely turn off some of the scans.

Of course, there may be other programs auto-running that you don't want so run msconfig and check the Startup list for junk.

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#889845 - 05/25/13 01:00 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
InlandAZ Offline
Glitches Forum Moderator
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Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 6743
Loc: Arizona
You may want to download and install HD Tune - it contains a Health tab that displays your Hard Drive's current S.M.A.R.T counters. If you have a high Read Error Rate, or Reallocated Sector count it will definitely slow the boot process down.

Here the Freeware version - (you want HD Tune, Not HD Tune Pro) HD Tune

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#889978 - 05/25/13 11:23 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: InlandAZ]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
Thanks all of you who are offering suggestions !! thumbsup

Jenny100
This is what the hard drive light does :

I switch the machine on and the "Motherboard Logo" screen appears.
The drive light is red for a few seconds and then goes off. But the Logo screen stays for at least five minutes.

When the boot up towards the Welcome Screen starts, the screen goes blank, the drive light flickers and then goes red for a short period and then goes off again.
And nothing else happens for another 5 minutes.

Whilst the Welcome screen is actually appearing, the drive light flickers continuously for a while and then mainly stays "solid" red until the boot up is complete.

Traveler
I've never bothered about the System Restore thing because any previous problems with this machine have always eventually been resolved without having to resort to using that.

Robert Gault
My techie Son in Law makes sure I don't have too much junk anywhere on any of my machines but I'll get him to check as soon as he is "available".

InlandAZ
Do I just download that HD Tune (say to Desktop) and then run it ??
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#890032 - 05/26/13 10:25 AM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
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Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35208
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Mad
I switch the machine on and the "Motherboard Logo" screen appears.
The drive light is red for a few seconds and then goes off. But the Logo screen stays for at least five minutes.

Since this happens before the hard drive even starts booting Windows, the problem isn't likely to be caused by hard drive corruption. What's likely happening during this first 5 minute delay is that the BIOS is trying to detect or initialize some piece of hardware. It may detect it, but be waiting for some feedback that it isn't getting.

Quote:
When the boot up towards the Welcome Screen starts, the screen goes blank, the drive light flickers and then goes red for a short period and then goes off again.
And nothing else happens for another 5 minutes.

NT-based versions of Windows detect hardware separately from the BIOS. So Windows is probably having the same problem with detection and/or initialization that the BIOS did earlier.

What's usually suggested in diagnosing this type of problem is to physically remove any non-essential hardware and see if the problem goes away. If it does, you start adding things back one by one until the problem reappears.

You could also check Device Manager for problems, though it might not indicate problems if initialization was eventually successful.

It's still worth testing the hard drive with the HDTune utility Inland suggested.

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#890049 - 05/26/13 11:21 AM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
InlandAZ Offline
Glitches Forum Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 6743
Loc: Arizona
Quote:
InlandAZ
Do I just download that HD Tune (say to Desktop) and then run it ??


Yes, that's all you need to do - It's a great little tool, I use it all the time.

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#890106 - 05/26/13 06:10 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Robert Gault Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 07/16/06
Posts: 1265
Mad,

Jenny100 made an excellent observation and almost certainly has indicated the root of your problem.

As you don't sound like a techi smile and certainly will not want to poke around in the BIOS settings or check hardware (fans, batteries, memory sticks, etc.), you had better wait for your son-in-law to troubleshoot your computer.

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#890128 - 05/26/13 10:40 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Robert Gault]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
OK. I downloaded and ran HD Tune and got a full set of results - which I copied to Clipboard.
[So I can quote from those if you need me to.]
But the main thing (I think ??) is that the error Scan showed "No Damaged Blocks".

Anyway, I'll pass all this info on to my Son in Law as soon as he is available as I'm sure he'll find it helpful.

And thank you all again very much indeed !! praise
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#890217 - 05/27/13 10:55 AM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
InlandAZ Offline
Glitches Forum Moderator
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 6743
Loc: Arizona
If sectors have been relocated, there will be no errors to report - The Info tab is the one you want to review.

You can view a list of error conditions below, the more serious errors are highlighted.

Known ATA S.M.A.R.T. attributes

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#890230 - 05/27/13 11:55 AM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: InlandAZ]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
Thanks, InlandAZ smile

I'll be passing ALL the info and suggestions you kind folks have provided on to my Son in Law as soon as I see him.

And I'll let you know if the problem gets resolved yes
_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#890269 - 05/27/13 01:38 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
InlandAZ Offline
Glitches Forum Moderator
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Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 6743
Loc: Arizona
Let us know Mad, I'm curious. You don't by any chance have an external hard drive attached to the PC do you? If so, you might disconnect it and see if you boot up normally.

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#890282 - 05/27/13 02:52 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: InlandAZ]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
Yes, I do, normally, but as soon as this problem started I took it off smile
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#891261 - 05/31/13 06:21 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi.

My Son in Law was able to pay a flying visit last night and said there is corruption in the Bios.

And he's sourced an identical (replacement) Motherboard at a very low cost to try.

If that doesn't work he says he will build me another XP machine - from stuff he has in already plus the really good bits of my existing machine.

I have regularly backed up important stuff to an external drive as well so I'm confident all will turn out OK.

grin grin grin
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#891284 - 05/31/13 08:34 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Winfrey Offline
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Registered: 04/11/06
Posts: 4334
Loc: The Country
Great... you're lucky to have that son in law :-)
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#891395 - 06/01/13 10:33 AM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Draclvr Online   content
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 9686
Loc: In Missouri near St. Louis
Can I borrow him?!
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#891461 - 06/01/13 03:03 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Draclvr]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
What ?? Borrow him ??

NO !! He's Mine, all MINE !!

rotfl rotfl rotfl

Yes. I am really lucky he lives near enough (and has the knowledge) to help.

My other Son in Law is also a techie whizz but his work required him to move several hundered miles away a few years ago, so it's been mainly help via email from him since then.

However, I appreciate ALL help. And I get a lot here at Gameboomers too - for which I'm very grateful praise
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#891533 - 06/01/13 08:03 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Winfrey Offline
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Registered: 04/11/06
Posts: 4334
Loc: The Country
LOL...Drac... I'd take you in a heartbeat :-)
_________________________
Would that I could be the peacemaker in your soul that I might turn the discord and the rivalry of your elements into oneness and melody
Gibran

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#891547 - 06/01/13 09:39 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Mad]
Draclvr Online   content
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 06/03/05
Posts: 9686
Loc: In Missouri near St. Louis
Good one, Winfrey!
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Gardening is better than therapy. Plus you get tomatoes.

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#891551 - 06/01/13 10:53 PM Re: Boot Up Taking Over 10 minutes [Re: Draclvr]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23191
Loc: United Kingdom
Pity I can't lay claim to YOU as well, Draclvr, considering how much you also have helped me laugh laugh laugh
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