More News about URU: Ages Beyond MYST

Hi Gang......

My pleasure to pass along what I am allowed of a conversation this morning, with a good friend of mine who is a very active insider on CYAN's URU project. To quote: ...."the game is awesome!" It is highly addictive and worth getting DSL. It is a multi-player in that you can wander around and you can visit other players/people, take tours...etc. Being is the game is online, you can get the current ages, updated graphics and community new/stuff. "The exploration aspect is absolutely unbelievable."

This insider, who has virtually unequalled adventure gaming experience says, ...."To date, I haven't seen anything that resembles this game. This new online world will not only get MYST fans pumped, but introduce a lot of new people to a gaming experience unlike any other. It is the future of interactive gaming."

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Are you ready? URU: Ages Beyond MYST official site.

WELL, I FOR ONE AM REALLY TICKED OFF. LOVE THE MYST SERIES AND CONCEPT, BUT SINCE UBI SAYS 'WORLDS TO SHARE' THEY'RE NOT SHARING! WHY LIMIT THE ACCESS TO ONLY BROADBAND USERS? THIS IS NO ACTION CAPTURE THE FLAG TYPE OF GAME. IMHOP THIS STINKS.

Thanks for the update Witchie, I can hardly wait until they release this one !! I think this game might breathe new life into our beloved Adventure Game genre.

Of course, "worth getting DSL" assumes that DSL is available. DSL has been "coming within 18 months" every place I've lived in the last 6 years (California, Virginia, Connecticut). Oddly, though, DSL never seems to arrive. And with the telcos once again in charge of DSL, I doubt I'll ever see it. Ah, well.

Alright, my stupidity is showing, but will this work if you have cable, not DSL?

I think the only requirement is a connection faster than dial-up. That is, a connection faster than mine.

My understanding of the requirements were "broadband." Broadband includes cable, DSL, T1-3, any fast connection. In other words....NOT 56K dial up.

Cable can vary tremendously in speed. In peak use hours it can be as slow as dialup.

DSL isn't perfect either. My Dad gets DSL and connections sometimes stall out due to packet loss or something.

I can't afford either one. Especially not Cable, since I don't currently get Cable TV.

Would it be so unthinkable for Cyan to have subscriptions where they'd send you a CD or DVD every month which includes the new areas?

Hi there, Jenny.................I don't know if its "unthinkable" but its sure worth looking into, huh? Love, Witchen

Shorah

I live in a semi-rural location and am doing my level best to persuade the cable people (and whoever else I can get to listen to me) to send broadband my way. They say its getting to be most places now. They say it should be here in the next few months *hopes fervently*

Satellite is an option for some who are especially far from civilization but not for me (tall trees in the way).

And yes, some broadband is pricey but other charge around 50/month US. Since we dont subscribe to cable tv either, we should be able to afford it.

Most cities are getting broadband now. Hopefully you will find a place soon, MrLipid. This site identifies a few possible options:
http://www.orderdsl.net/index.htm

If they say you could get it, you may be able to get something even cheaper locally

>Would it be so unthinkable for Cyan to have >subscriptions where they'd send you a CD or DVD >every month which includes the new areas?

Even the "hub" area (D'ni cavern) is really huge and incredibly detailed. I dont think just D'ni city by itself would fit on a dvd, let alone process all the effects and let you move in good time. (How I wish!)

Maybe when pcs get even faster, they will let us swap dvds *chuckles*

Salar

I think that Witchen's right - Not everyone has even the access to high speed internet service. Maybe they will have or would consider a CDRom version for others to access.

Laura

Broadband service for me has always been the best. Never has there been any problems or it slowing down at all. Its Road Runner service. I am looking forward to this game. I do not think they would consider the CD option since it would be more expensive in the long run and as there would be so many updates there is no way they could keep up.

I recently tested my cable connection at www.bandwidthplace.com. I got 2.2 megabits per sec. I was told this will be plenty fast enough to run the game. Hope so.

Hi all,
I've followed every single thing about this game, and I tried to understand why you needed broadband. I found this quote on the Ubi Uru website ( http://uru.ubi.com/ - how's that for a tongue twister), in the latest press release.

..."Uru will take advantage of broadband to deliver a continually updated, immersive environment and storyline, with content that grows, changes and evolves constantly. It will also be the first persistent world to support real-time voice communication."

So, it looks like it needs broadband for two things, the "continually updated" content, which was mentioned before, as well as voice communication. Having tried some of those "long distance over the internet" phone calls, back when I had dial-up, I can attest that voice communication over dial-up is awful.

I'll also push my favorite Uru site here, Uru Obsession. Originally, the site was called "Mudpie Obsession", from the previous code name, but they have changed it to reflect the new name. If there is anything abut Uru out, anywhere, this site has it - http://www.uruobsession.com/ . The left link is for the site. They have screenshots that came out, over the years, that aren't on the "official" site. If you look around on the site, you'll see a little something I wrote for another board (some time ago), analyzing where I thought Cyan was in the development process, based on their job postings.

Thanks mszv! I think there's no way to escape that broadband is the coming standard. I guess the best way to approach the dilemma of wanting it and not being able to get it, is to complain in our own areas to the local telecommunications companies, urging them to install broadband facilities. Perhaps (and that's a big perhaps) when enough complaints are registered they'll get moving, get it installed as system standard, and give us a reasonable price! Its happened before and no matter what, I think standard broadband transmission is inevitable in the strategic view. In deference to URU: Ages Beyond MYST.....CYAN has never been behind the eight-ball when it comes to progress. Love, Witchen

An afterthought that came to mind here is that we are now positioned like the three blind men dutifully trying to describe an elephant. LOL When we know what that elephant really looks like; that is, what URU really is, I'm so absolutely sure we'll have a much better understanding of why broadband was the only and obvious carrier. Love, Witchen =O)

I must be old-fashioned, but I don't like the requirement of getting on-line in order to play an Adventure game.

from JENNY100.

In response, SALAR OF MYST wrote:
Are you implying that it wouldn't fit on a hard drive or that the RAM would be too small to handle the processing of effects and could only handle it in bits and pieces fed from the net? What numbers are we talking about? I wonder if the programers have not really thought enough about handling it. They may be just taking the easy way out. It's a little like the conversion from having to write very efficient programs, since computers had so little memory, to the rise of easy, but inefficient programs with the advent of huge memory resources. Tell me I'm wrong.

Some broadband providers in the UK at least are beginning to impose download limits per day like 1GB. By the sound of things such a limit would make running URU impossible.

If single-player mode wouldn't work from a DVD it's not going to work running over the Internet. We'll have higher capacity DVDs in time.

The biggest downside to an online-only game, of course, is that the day will come, as it came for FOG and it is coming for Motor City Online, when the company-run servers are permanently shut down. It may be a world to the players but it's only a budget line item to the company.

Ever see the first four hours (two installments of two hours each) and then miss the third two hour installment of a TV movie? Were it not for VCRs this sort of thing would probably happen all the time. I tape all of a "continued" movie just to be sure I can watch all of it. If I miss the last part I forget about watching the first part. It relates to the idea that if I buy something I want to have it "in my pocket", so to speak, to use when I get around to it and to re-use when I want. In other words, I want to own what I buy. Even now we do not own what we buy in the way of, for example, games on disk. We own the disk, and that's all, but we can, at least, use it more than once. I'm waiting for the day when the disks have a "time out" built into them where they erase themselves automatically. I'm quite sure I've read that is already technically possible.

Although I have DSL I don't think I'm going to go for the online games. It's equivalent to helping them save costs that will not, undoubtedly, pass the savings on to me, the customer. After all, did "do it yourself" gas stations really help us. I can still remember having my radiator, tires, oil, etc. checked just for being nice enough to buy gas at a gas station. Now they want us to check our own groceries, take responsibility for our safety deposit boxes (so the bank doesn't have to pay for insurance, I guess), wash our own car at the car wash, and the doctors (and others) want to limit how much the courts can give us for their screw-ups.

I have to feel sorry for the younger people who think what is happening to this society is necessary. By the time they figure out what's happening to them it will already have happened.

"....afterthought that came to mind here is that we are now positioned like the three blind men dutifully trying to describe an elephant."

Hi Gang...... In keeping with the above, previously stated, we are discussing the negatives (and the possible demise) of an online game we haven't even seen or experienced yet?

There's surely a downside (or two) to every step of progress in technology....but just from my personal perspective, I'm already prepared to get DSL in a heartbeat to play this one. So, i'll just hang here with my "glass half full," with the full expectation that URU is going to knock my socks off!

In defence of Cyan supposing they made this so that it would work at a reasonable speed for modem users, wouldn't it be a completely different game then and would we be excited about it and how many of us would complain about the graphics being rubbish and not fitting in with the whole Myst thing, or complain about some other feature that was no longer there?

I will say about URU what I said about Syberia 2...because it is not my cup of tea, the line for purchasing it will be one person shorter.

For everyone for whom it is their cup of tea, enjoy!

I don't care so much one way or the other about the real-time voice communication part. But I do not want the story "evolving" during those times when I don't have time to play the game. I don't want to feel totally left behind when I get back into the game. Or even halfway left behind. This actually bothers me even more than the requirement for a fast connection. I could always go over to my Dad's house and play it, but I certainly can't do that every day. I do not want the game "growing and changing constantly" while I am not there. I like playing games at my own pace.

And about storage space:

From the look of the screenshots at http://uru.ubi.com, it appears you play as a little man who walks around detailed prerendered screens. This seems similar to what you have in TLJ and Syberia - a 3D character walking around a 2D screen. This kind of setup would take up much less space than something like Schizm, where you have movie transitions play with every step you take. With Uru, there wouldn't be the need for the transition movies because you'd just have the character walking around the same screen or move to a different screen. I don't see any reason why you couldn't fit the beginning parts of the game on a DVD, and when updated areas were made, you could buy the updated area on another DVD.

The way it is now, with people having to pay for a broadband connection to play the game, Ubisoft and Cyan should get a kickback from the broadband companies.

I know that some are disappointed that it's broadband, I'm actually happy about it. If there able to make a game I can play online and can add new worlds, I say great. I admit if I couldn't get broadband for some reason I'd be disappointed too. Remember though, rumor has it that there will be a Myst 4 that will be different than URU.

Shorah

I tried to answer some y'all's questions (I dunno know that much : ) the other day, used too many smilies and found the reply was wiped when I hit "back" to rectify my little problem. ah well. Hope y'all understand if I skip most of the graphics this time. *rueful smile*

TAKE 2!

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query #1: I've heard there are several options for camara view. You have an avatar, yes, but I'm pretty sure you dont have to look at yourself all day long

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query 2: What was I saying? All broadband games ask enormous resources from the servers they use and ask as little as possible from the client.

& Having seen a glimpse of Mudpie at Mysterium, I can just imagine what it would be for my pc to try and keep track of all those elements at once. EEK!

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# 3 Doing things the easy way?

I dont think Cyan knows how. The team currently working on URU include many of the brilliant, dedicated, friendly, workaholics who brought you Riven ~ the game where every little bolt was rendered in its entirety (though you saw only the head) and made sure even their weirdest machines would work (at least theoretically)

IMHO ~ Cyan is using broadband because they believe its the future of gaming & interaction, the best way to give you quality 3d realtime, & because they love pushing the envelope ~ turning work back into art

I remember a Cyantist saying that they actually bother to make up at least some rendered scenes as breathatkingly beautiful as they would ideally wish......and then break them down to what most desktops should be able to play when it will be out.

Rawa went so far once as to say that the version of Uru they would LIKE to release would run optimally on a Cray (BIG BIG computer).

Putting Uru online means they dont have to drop the bar as far. Artists dig that kinda thing.

for ex: Myst ME was NOT a reworking of Myst. Its the original edition ~ before they had to make it run in 256 colors.
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# 4 comments re :owning software.

I know what you mean. I agree. Its annoying not to be able to guarantee replays after lottsa dough invested, but I have faith in Cyan's integrity and that makes a big difference to me. I know they will do all they can to be fair.

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#5 disks & modems::

Since I'm active in a community where Cyan speaks out pretty often, I know that they HAVE tried to come up with disk & modem ideas and that so far it hasnt panned out. Last I heard their thing was trying to make sure that mac users are fully supported. Hope that works out!

IMHO ~ The decision to continue the official Myst series on disk (Myst4 is not an illusion), is at least partly a recognition of those who wont be ready this fall/winter for URU.

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#6 Online gaming generally:

Most online games use disks & compression on the dl files to keep down usage rates.

As far as I know, Uru WONT require that you "keep up" (I dont like that sort of real life time imposition thing either. Thats why I passed on Animal Crossing)

The latest announcement is Myst mode :: that is, we should be able to play alone at our own pace, like the original games.

That suggests to me that they've ideas for preventing that kind of pressure but I've no clue as to how that'd be implemented.

I THINK (but cannot vouch for this) that changes are mostly additions to the larger worlds & communities. You can get there when you want or not go that way at all (again this is what Ive heard down the vine. Its only a solid promise when its in writing from Ubi/CyanWorlds)

Demos should show for certain what the reality will be closer to the release date.

As far as I know, Uru is and will be unique. They are trying to offer

~ gorgeous graphics
~thoughtful, relaxing puzzles
~extensive, peaceful explorations
~a complex, historically & scientifically based story/history for this Universe...and not require you to "learn all that" if you dun wanna

& the opportunity for community online as it has never been experienced

plus all kinds of safeguards that seek to keep it family friendly.

Because you really can share a Myst experience. You can let your toddler "drive" and your grandmother give instructions. or just get away from it all for a few. I LIKE that part a lot *very big smile*

I can't think of anybody else who has a better shot of pulling it all off, either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="cool.gif" />

Hope it was helpful

Salar, the long-winded

Salar,

That was extremely helpful to me. I've been a bit confused, and sometimes amused, by all the talk, some of it going "whoosh" right over my head. BTW, long-windedness(?) is not always a bad thing. Thanks again.

It would take a lot of complaints before some telephone companies would consider whether or not to make the investments needed to provide broadband services. If they feel they could not make a profit greater than the initial investments, they won't even consider offering the service.

There's a substantial article in last Thursday's (3/13/03) Wall Street Journal that lays out why the phone companies have done such a dismal job of providing broadband (DSL) service to their customers.

The headline is: How Phone Firms Lost to Cable In Consumer Broadband Battle.

The subhead is: Content to Rent Dial-Up Lines, the Bells Dawdled on DSL, Then Ran Into Glitches.

The nutshell version is this.

It is not trivial to get DSL to work. Cable is easy.

Also, the phone companies didn't want to cut into their very profitable T1 business. Answer: Offer dial-up or T1 and nothing in-between.

Cable companies had nothing like a T1 business to damage and had the technology in place to easily offer broadband. Which is why most broadband in the US is from the cable companies rather than the phone companies.

This is the first time I heard of another MYST game. I think it would be risky to market the game to a percentage of an already select group of gamers. Hopefully, CYAN will make an "old fashioned" version for those of us who don't live our lives online.

Lipid, another factor, not usually mentioned, is that other providers use the Bell lines to provide DSL services to customers, and only pay a small portion, per Federal law, for use of these lines, well below what it cost the Bell companies for the lines. Until Federal law is changed concerning this practice, the Bell companines are going to limit their investments in the DSL area.

YIKES!

Where I live the trees are all in the way for satellite and they are telling me it will be three to five years for cable anything, or broadband....I'm moving!

kateri - the techno terror

Homer6,

I think the FCC just voted to relieve the telcos of the need to open their networks to other providers.

Originally, in 1996, the telcos agreed to allow access because that agreement would give them access to, what was then, the lucrative long distance market. When the long distance market collapsed, the telcos decided they would take their time making access to their networks available. This eventually starved out most of the third party DSL providers.

And, as it stands today, DSL is still not a money maker. Hence, no rush by the telcos in getting it up and running.

Given the problems (and issues) with DSL, it looks like cable wins the race for broadband. With, maybe, satellite coming up a fast second.

According to what my company told us, the push was to get the FCC to let the Bell companies charge the indenpendant providers actual costs of those leased lines, instead of the reduced rates, which the FCC chose not to do. We haven't received any word on what you mentioned, but it would be good news to know that did happen.

Where the push for DSL happened was in the large cities, where the money is. Sure, the rural areas got DSL, but only within 15,000 feet of the telephone's central office. So anyone beyond that, or not having cable, or satellite, are out of luck. I've heard there is technology being developed, or already out, that extends the range that DSL can be offered. But as you said, because of the low return on investment, this technology isn't being used either.

Homer6,

The source of my information can be found here .

The most telling quote from the article is this:

When it comes to high-speed DSL and fiber-optic lines, Baby Bells will no longer have to share their networks with rivals.

I could be wrong, but that doesn't sound like just a rate increase.

And that brings us back to your point about the inability of the telcos to make enough money on DSL to justify the costs of offering it. Or offering it at a reasonable price. If there is no one other than the telcos to offer DSL, I wonder what the price will be? And whether the telcos will be willing to let DSL fade away like ISDN?

working for a telephone company i can tell you that fixing landlines (the regular lines that you have coming into home and "wired" into a jack or telephone) are the last thing on the list to seem to get attention to get repaired. You see, most of the landlines are getting very old and need to be updated which could mean anything from new electronics to new cable being run and it is not as profitable as wireless now. because it would cost more to keep it updated than to kind of just let it 'die out.everything "seems to be going wireless" to quote the cmpny and others, so they as companies do- who want to make the $'s -(not that it is passed down to the employees)they are spending big to keep wireless service updated and going. BUT this is not the same as the BROADBAND....and unless you are a big business using it....you will get inline after the wireless customers if you have a problem.and , unfortunately unless you know a lot about it and are lucky enough to get a repair tech who "just hasn't read a manual" who acutally understands how it works and TAKES THE TIME TO LISTEN TO WHAT YOU TELL HIM YOU ARE HAVING TROUBLE WITH AND WHAT IT IS DOING--ya pays your money and takes your chances. The sales of broadband through private companies specializing in it and others such as cable companies is generallly higher because they've had more experience but...as everything else more info and good service can keep customers happy.
i started w/this occupation years ago and the idea was to help the customer and at the same time be pleasant. you know....customer service 'old school'. now, we are not to engage customer in unecessary conversation. we are to handle the call in 21 SECONDS or less. it is horrible and unfortunately to keep your job you end up having to rush customers off the line or interrupt them to get info. many time it takes that retiree in Florida who lives alone 21 seconds to remember why they dialed "0" and would you not give them the same service as another? Makes me so sad to realize how far the personal touch has fallen. AND the other thing about this get off the line in 21 seconds is we don't get to hear the call connect, therefore you have customers calling back several times because the call did not go thru the 1st time when it could have probably been avoided the first call. Especially on international calls--where dialing info might have been changed since that customer began using that number to call over there.
sorry about the rant. that is why trouble is so slow in getting reported and fixed, and the operators get no trouble reports like we used to...we've been cut out of the loop for info. we work w/data bases that are not kept current and online tools that are poorly designed. if you have a problem w/your service the first thing to do is report it to your telephone office (be sure to ask if there is a charge to fix it....)and if it does not get fixed call the C.E.O. of the company....they're supposed to know what is going on in the compnay and from what i have seen(and from info from other operators from other companies it is the same) they could not handle a customer call if their life depended on it. sorry i got carried away but i like my dial up service (my provider may not be the best but it's my choice) and since i am not a student or use this for work i don't want to pay DOUBLE+ for broadband for my computer.

Hi there, Gamenut..........Hooray for your observations. Having retired from the telecommunications industry myself, I am lined up right beside you on this issue. IMHO....

In the words of a close friend who is currently deeply engaged in this newer offering..."the bottom line here is MONEY, MONEY, MONEY." Nothing new, huh? Good solid customer service is becoming as scarce as hen's teeth.

Love, Witchen =O)

By "wireless" do you mean cell phones?
Cell phones are useless for telephone orders where you have to give secure information.

Too bad customers don't have a choice. You're stuck with whatever service your local phone or cable company gives you.

This is turning into a Mixed Bag thread.

I'd say that phrase pretty well sums up the concerns surrounding an online-only game that requires broadband.

Well, I'm going to pipe in here. I'm really looking forward to the release of Uru. I do have broadband, DSL in fact, so that's not an issue. I'm also assuming there will be monthly subscription fee, which, if it's in the range of $12-$15 per month (US dollars) I will pay. I'm glad to be in a position where I have broadband and I can pay a monthly fee - I know it's not like that for everyone.

Just thought I'd say this, while we were in the midst of discussing other things. Uru, Uru, Uru, hurry up!

You are indeed fortunate and I hope Uru exceeds your expectations.

Thanks for the info, Lipid, it was something we had not yet heard. And since I don't have the time to be online for hours on end, I would never have heard about it. And that article hit the nail right on the head, and I wonder how many more telcos are going to go belly up before the FCC changes their ruling.

When I started with the telco company I work for, 25 years ago, THE CUSTOMER drove the business, and making THAT CUSTOMER happy was THE first and only thing that mattered. Over the years, that has changed, and changed drastically. Now, MR. MONEY is the ONLY topic of the day, everyday. And because MR. MONEY has taken over the business, the general plant has really taken a beating.

Some of the cables in our outside plant are 50 years old or older, lead sheathed, 100% full, and are in dire need of repairs. Instead of replacing these 100% full cables, or older cables, with larger, newer cables, additional cables are buried along side, or spun up with the existing cables, taking up valuable space. And because PRODUCTION is right up there with MR. MONEY, any cable repairs will be taken care of when that's the only thing that can keep the techs busy for the day. But with such a reduced work force, that rarely happens. Thus, telephone plant is in a very sad state of neglect.

As long as a city has cable TV, there will be competition within broadband services. Those living in the rural areas will be the losers in all of this, unless they have a phone company that will offer them broadband service, like the CO-OP I belong to. Or can, and are willing to, invest in satellite services. And for get about placing fiber optic cable to homes in rural areas, it's just too expensive an investment for the return.

What really needs to happen, is the development of a transmission system that allows broadband to be delivered regardless of distance, over existing lines, which allows greater return than investment. Go ahead, someone slap me, wake me up. I have these funny dreams on occasion.

Well, this thread has gone down something of a detour, in my opinion. Is anyone else, who hasn't posted about the game, thinking about playing Uru when it comes out?

Just wondering. It's not that I'm not interested in broadband issues, I am, but now I'm interested in Uru! I wonder if anyone else who hadn't posted was interested in the game.

Are you kidding? I just bought another 256 ram, an 80 gig HD, 2.0 ghz processor, and a Geforce 4 ti4200 video card just in anticipation for this game. Not to mention I only paid $250.

Yes, I'll definitely be playing Uru. I appreciate all the info on this thread, as I don't keep up with the latest about Uru on my own.

Me I'm sure I'll give it a shot just to see what it's about. Heck we got DSL for EQ plus my husband and son had to have faster processors, more memory, better video cards yadda, yadda, yadda for said EQ. I figure it's my turn

Shorah

WOW! Lottsa info on the telecommunications situation. Thanks! Looks like cable &/or satellite (if we cut a few trees down *wince*) will be the way to go to get Uru most likely. Cable has made it to many rural locations, including mine. There's hope that the broadband upgrades will come through that way reasonably soon.


Mr Lipid, you make great sense, but I think broadband, however delivered, is definitely the way everyone is going. Most websites take a long time to load on dialup, many more news/weather/entertainment report elements are effectively unavailable without broadband feed. Many businesses are coming to depend on it. Its not just the few online games driving up interest.

On the other hand, if the economy takes a real nose dive, it wouldnt take long to strip those features off most comsumer sites. Its still a gamble, I agree.


& Uru is the only adventure game online I've heard about that is available or planned that intensely interests me. For ex: EQ sounds too big & too demanding of my time. (I've been known to take a year to finish an rpg)
& I'd like to SEE Star Wars Galaxies but a tour would probably be enough. Trying to "live" in SW's fairly chaotic universe has limited appeal for me. I'm more like Aunt Beru than Luke Skywalker, ya know? Sims never interested me & it seems like most of the other games are based on combat.

But lots of folks WILL want to play these games & thats cool. Uru would make an excellent "alternate" premium channel for them too IMHO

One day folks may play more entertainment than they watch. Imagine a 3d realtime "travel channel!" IMO Uru sounds like a well-crafted fantasy version, plus puzzles. heh.

Meantime, I'm still playing offline, chatting on dialup, & waiting for my copy Omega Stone to arrive.

Salar

I'm most definitely going to play Uru when it comes out! I've gotten cable, and I've been upgrading my computer for Uru. All I really need now is a better sound card. Cyan's games are always so rich in music and effects. I want to relish that to the full!

Uru, Uru, Uru!

I think I posted this once but it's worth posting again. I was getting a cable transfer rate of 1.2 megabits on XP and 98 from bandwidthplace.com until I went to pcpitstop.com and updated my registry. I now get 2.2 megabits on both machines. My internet is much faster and my download rates are fantastic.

Crispeto, thanks for the url! Looks like it can help dialup people too

Salar