More action creepin' in ????

Hi.

Just saw on the adventure news group that the new TLJ is going to be an "action/adventure"

The subscriber there gleaned this information from an interview (unfortunately not in English) from this link :



QUOTE.....
While visiting JustAdventure's forums, I found a link to an interview
(in Norwegian) http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=59612 with Ragnar
T

i saw this discussed at adventuregamers. i thought it was a joke at first.

not pleased. i wasn't on the edge of my seat waiting for TLJ2... but i wouldn't have minded another game of the same caliber.

i hope they find some way to make it work. april ryan as lara croft, anyone?

-emily

Looks like we should start oiling our pistols...

Shame really.

I think you're probably right, Jonathan, but we won't have to worry about combat in Dark Fall II....that's for darn sure, right? I, for one, appreciate that. Jumping out of my skin is quite enuff' action for me, thank you veddy much! LOL

Love, Witchen =O)

I love a good action game like the next trigger happy pacifist (currently playing UT'03 fan made levels) but action/adventure doesn't tend to mix too well. The action game developers seem to be much better at including puzzle elements than the adventure developers seem to be at including action elements. It's either "walk the dodgy 3D boards" or "dodge the 3D bullets".... it's only included to extend the game play, and frustrate the player.

No "action" in DFII. But you might need your reading glasses, and a good dollop of imagination.

I think action games are great fun. But I do not enjoy action in adventure games. I think I finally understand the reason why…and, hey wait a minute, Jonathan just stole my answer! I completely agree with what he said. In an action game, the action is fine-tuned to be fun and intuitive and challenging and feel good. In an adventure game, action sequences usually feel clunky and uncomfortable and annoying and unfun and out-of-place.

Quite simply....stop caring about those games. There are so many other pure adventures coming up that you don't need any of the action/adventure ones.

Sorry Doug! Didn't mean to nick your post!

I am enjoying No One Lives forever 2 (lovely, lovely) as much as I am enjoying The Sydney Mystery. Each has it's own enjoyment factor. Long live diversity, and free thinking.

There's a big difference between "action" and "combat", but it looks like the two get merged in people's minds.

Seems to me that a game like GK2 had "action" in it, but that game doesn't get painted with the same brush as the new games. Sam and Max's Whack a Rat was an "action" (or even worse - arcade!) sequence, but hardly the downfall of that game.

In a fully 3D game, even WALKING would be considered an "action", since the direct control over the character would be so much more involved than merely click 'n wait. And obviously more interactive functions would increase the "action" level even more. Some of this is just genre labeling, anyway. If Real Myst had a 3rd person character, IT would be called an action/adventure.

On another thread, Steve Ince (from Revolution) stressed that Broken Sword 3 would NOT have combat in it, and yet still it's assumed that it will be a shockingly intense action game?

I'm genuinely not understanding why the very mention of the word action is causing so many people to get nervous. True, it hasn't traditionally been done well, but that doesn't mean it CAN'T be. And if I had to pin my hopes on any companies getting it right, I'd say LucasArts, Revolution, and Funcom have earned the benefit of the doubt.

Am I off base here?

Jack

Hi again

Maybe I'M the one that's off base Jack

Cheers.

Mad

It's because of outstandingly bad experiences in the past.

People who enjoy adventure games tend to want to relax with them. It isn't always a matter of not being able to do the action and having to get a saved game from someone else to get past it, though there can be that problem too.

I think all the Gabriel Knight games had timed sequences - not a whole lot of them, but enough to aggravate a significant number of gamers and prevent some of them from being able to complete the game.
Maybe we should distinguish between different types of action sequences. Timed sequences find themselves into adventure games all too often. Other types of action sequences, which might involve jumping, climbing, shooting, or hacking are found in action and action/adventures.

The thing about action and action/adventure games is that they usually have cheats to help you if you can't do the action. And that isn't true for the timed sequences in adventure games.

I think I would agree that it wouldn't hurt to wait and at least see what they mean by "action" before assuming the worst. I also see a big difference between physical puzzles vs combat or arcade challenges.

To me climbing up a downspout, squashing the spider with the book shelf or when Nico has to get the bad guy on the boat before she gets offed: are all action or physical puzzles. But they aren't action like in standard shooters or action games. For one - there isn't any twitch factor. You just have to click on the right choice.

I think I am more concerned with what is meant by point and click games are dead. Keyboards have more options which usually mean more fast response type puzzles. It also is a more awkward interface as you have to hit multiple buttons to do one thing. Action to move and then whatever key means use, pick up etc.

That seems (if true) to be a definite shift in what was originally said was planned for the game.

But I have to have some faith in the developers sense. If TLJ2 is changed so much that adventure gamers wouldn't buy it - I doubt it alternatively be action enough to become the next Grand Theft Auto. I just can't see that being their intent anyway. Too much two way dialogue maintained with the adventure gaming community for me to think that. It is after all just one interview. There are many prior interviews and communications that have pointed in a different direction.

Laura

Singer is quite right to say that action and combat are two different things. Having got to grips with "Baldur's Gate" I don't mind combat - it's action and reflexes I have problems with.

I can see the virtues of keyboard control for a first person game (though I prefer a mouse.) For a third person game keyboard doesn't work at all for me.

Point and click is far from dead in many genres but bizarrely adventure games seem to be being compared with shooters which they're not closest to, either in game style or in who plays them.

Thank goodness for the independents like Jonathan! Good dollops of imagination are what we need!

Regards, Peter.

Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant!
Nail well and truly hit on head. This is EXACTLY what we've been saying all along and the way we have approached any action in the game - it's simply a puzzle you have to work out the solution to.

For us it's the fact that point-and-click is very passive. You click on something and then wait for the character to walk across the screen and then do the action. With a change to direct control the gameplay is much more active and the connectivity with the character is stronger.

When we developed BS1 for the GameBoy Advance, we were very surprised by how exciting the game felt and how much more immediate the play was. Yet it still retained everything that made it Broken Sword. In many ways, the GBA BS1 was the prototype for BS-TSD and certainly in its principles it is very close to having the same feel.

I have always considered "action/adventure" (not combat) my favorite type of game and "point and click" second. I don't have issues with the keyboard but my GBer friends who know Arthur Itis well, may very well have problems. Fast reflexes with fingers that are hurting makes some games unplayable for a large part of the population.

My fingers are getting stiff lately and some day "point and click" will be my favorite type of game. If I get to be 90 and there's no Dark Fall XV or BS 16 to play, I'm going to be very upset. Keep 'em coming and I'll add my Bravos to the Indies as well

Speaking of "Action/Adventure" , I read that the new "Full Throttle" will be 50/50 action & adventure. It will feature fight scenes that were compared to the ones in the new Indiana Jones game.

I think the reason some Adventure gamers worry about 'action' sequences in adventure games is not only that these parts are not well done, but that we don't like to play them. If it's a timed puzzle or something you can use logic and think your way out of, that's one thing, but if you just need fast reflexes, that's quite another.

As for 'direct control' of characters as opposed to 'point & click', I assume this means controls like we saw in games like "Grim Fandango", or "Largo Winch". That is, mainly keyboard controlled like in some action games. I don't have a particular problem with this, but I do tend to run my character into walls sometimes, and I know lots of gamers just don't care for it. I must say, I don't see it as any great improvment over "Point & Click", and it may well add to the frustration factor.

Louis

I disagree that the dread of "action" in games is based primarily on bad personal experiences. That's why I asked. It seems to me that the whole issue has taken on a life of its own; a kind of mass hysteria.

I understand that SOME action sequences may have caused people grief in past games, but then so have sliders, mazes, obtuse puzzles, etc. But the prevailing attitude towards THOSE is that it's an accepted part of the game, and there's always help if needed.

But I think the notion of action derails that same train of thought, and jumps into a different mindset of action = combat = twitch factor = blood pressure rising = I won't be able to do it = I won't like this game. That's a LOT of leaps!!

Of course I'm not unsympathetic to people with arthritis, but my own experiences from playing keyboard/mouse combined games is that it's my MOUSE hand that gets cramped!!

And Peter, the better third person action games use a similar setup to the first person games now. Anyone who has played American McGee's Alice (for example) will vouch for its silky smooth controls, so it's possible to do it right.

Jack

Hi again

Scrolling through these posts I find that Laura has succinctly put what I was struggling to say ...........

"To me climbing up a downspout, squashing the spider with the book shelf or when Nico has to get the bad guy on the boat before she gets offed: are all action or physical puzzles. But they aren't action like in standard shooters or action games. For one - there isn't any TWITCH factor. You just have to click on the right choice."

That was the word I needed...."TWITCH" !!

The twitch factor is one issue that would deter me from playing a game - my reflexes are not up to those of a teenager. I don't think that's an issue for BS3 or TLJ2.

The problem I'm likely to have with games which use keyboard or joystick controls is just that I find them hard to use. I don't need another "Grim Fandango" experience. Some get on with keyboard controls, some don't. This isn't a question of mass hysteria, just personal experience.

I like to play games where I'm concentrating on the story and puzzles not trying painfully to maneouvre around.

Regards, Peter.

Well, I must put my two cents worth in here.
Dear Steve Ince(at work), using a point and click interface may be too passive for you, but for those of us who can't manage the keyboard for one reason or another, you are locking us out of the adventure game experience altogether!
I have had to return several Dreamcatcher/Adventure games because they had no indication, either on the game-box/jc or on the web site or in reviews that the interface was keyboard only, or had several keyboard features.
You young healthy people seem to thing that you are the only ones playing games out there. Well you are wrong. There are people who have had strokes and can only use one hand, or have some sort of physical problem that makes the keyboard very difficult to use. We especially need these games to make life more enjoyable. I really hate that this new thinking may jeopardize our ability to have the one challenge that we can enjoy.

Grim Fandango had a terrible control system (though I thought the game itself was excellent). And so did the Tomb Raiders and countless other games, adventures and action and RPG alike.

But there ARE good ones, and plenty of room for improvement, which is why I hope people won't assume that EVERY keyboard/mouse game will control horribly, or that every action sequence will be unmanageable. Sometimes it may not seem that way, but surely developers are learning.

I'm certainly not singling anyone out here, or saying that anyone is overreacting to their OWN experiences. But I've certainly seen examples where people are willing to dismiss games out of hand, simply from knowing nothing more than that a game has "action" in it. I'd hate to see BS3 or TLJ2 or the LucasArts sequels be pre-judged before they've had a chance to shine.

Jack

Hi FlowerPower,
I must admit to never having contemplated your quite serious issue. There will be a certain amount of customisability of the interface on the PC, but because there are some timing puzzles and areas where you may have to sneak around I'm not sure whether this wil be enough to make the game playable for you. I'm sorry that the move away from point-and-click will be detrimental to your enjoyment of what we believe is our best game to date.

It is not just your company Steve, but the whole industry is starting to think the PC is a poor cousin, and are primarily writing for the box, and porting to the PC. I realize that with some games, use of the keyboard does make the movement more controllable, but please don't forget us entirely. We are customers too, and we buy a lot of games. The adventure game genre is one of the ways that we have discovered to make life a little more bearable. Sometimes, for us, it is the only way we can have any real challenge.

Probably irrelevant to some degree, but just my thoughts - point and click can be used wonderfully well in action type games as well, Divine Divinity being an excellent example. Some people equate action with keyboard maneuvering, and there are many games that are horribly clunky in this regard, so their trepidation is well justified. I agree with Gatorlaw when she said that she is more concerned with the statement "point and click" is dead.

Well, I'm 51, my reflexes are terrible, and I'm going to give these games with keyboard control and a "little bit of action" a shot (oh, bad pun).

Along with the passive nature of point and click (which I like), and a static, slow game (which I also like) can't we have something else too? I'd like an adventure game where something more is happening on the screen, and my experience is a bit more, well, immersive and not so passive. They do call them "adventure games", after all. I'm not talking fast reflexes and shooting, but I'm willing to go with a slightly different format, and a different interface. I'm an adventure gamer too, just like the rest of you, and I'm fast getting into my "older years" (and remember, I've got reflexes about the speed and skill of a drunk tortoise, and that's probably unkind to the tortoise). Let's see what these new adventure games have to offer. I also want some adventure games with 3D engines and full range of movement. Bring it on.

Look, I'm not trivializing anyone's mobility impairments, but I think there can be room in the adventure game genre for more than one interface. I really want to have some different adventure game experiences. Depending on the interface, and, of course, one's mobility, I don't think keyboard control is bad. You know, for repetitive stress injuries, the mouse is more the cause of them then the keyboard (though a big mouse is better than a little one).

Personally, even a mouse interface is too much for me, sometimes. I'd like to wave my hand in front of the screen, and have something happen. That's for later, I think. Wait, doesn't the new Sony handheld game device (still in development) have an attached camera that does something like that? Adventure game developers, are you listening? Do that!

All for now.

I'm 52 and my motor skills are starting to wane. The biggest problem I have oddly enough, is with mouse-only point and click games. They make my wrist and fingers hurt and I'm using a good solid ergonomic setup with raised monitor, lowered keyboard and well-placed mouse. I find the mouse/keyboard combo the most relaxing, most controllable, immersive and least harmful to my wrists and hands. So if that is what is meant by direct control I'm in favor of it.

I do appreciate everything that is being said and I'll put a few things into a little personal perspective. I'm 45 and later this month my eldest son and his partner will be making me a grandparent, so, although I'm not old, I'm no spring chicken. My own partner is a little older than me and suffers with arthritis and also has a hearing problem. I myself have a lop-sided shoulder which has been with me all my life and a few years ago had to have an operation on my wrist for tendonitis. So I'm completely sympathetic to your issues.

Apart from one person, I'm the oldest in the company and many of the others are in their early to mid 20s. As a company we have a lot of creative talent that loves making games and has a great desire to do the best possible. The story and gameplay vision can only be fully realised by giving the game a large budget. This in turn necessitates making the game accessible to a wide number of people across multiple platforms because if we don't make a profit then we will be making games for no one next year.

We do not look on PC as the poor side of the equation as we develop the game across all three platforms simultaneously. The gameplay is the same, the interface a little different, but in some ways the PC version will be the better because of higher screen resolution, higher texture detail and maximum sound quality.

We do care about giving our customers the best possible - it's just a shame that we are unable to do so for everybody.

Have you tried switching hands? Even if the mouse is designed to be used with the right hand, I switch it to my left hand when my right hand/arm is bothering me to give my right hand/arm a rest. Or sometimes I move the mouse with my right hand but poke at the buttons with my left. It isn't my hand or fingers that bother me so much as further up my arm. I'm not as old as you, but my joints and tendons seem to be prematurely worn out from repetitive motion stress.

Jen have you or Scout ever considered using an alternative mouse such as the Cirque Smartcat?
One can lean back in the chair, and use it with one finger.
http://www.ergo-items.com/smart_cat_touchpad.htm

The new one has great setup control features. Try it, you might like it.

I don't know. It looks an awful lot like those touchpads that some laptops have and I don't care for those at all. And $60 is a bit much for something I might not like.

Jen
It is too bad that you can't try it at a store. This is not like the ones found on the laptops. This one is completely customizable to your needs. All four of the buttons as well as the touchpad. It can be set so that the touch pad is only used to move the cursor,or for any combination of other options. It has a complete setup system so that it sets itself automatically to your abilities. It is expensive compared to some of the cheaper mouse systems, however the cost is a lot cheaper than physician's fees for stress injuries and might prevent nerve damage if one is susceptible.
Just a thought.

When did they take the action out of adventures? Most of the early 3d games I got have one or two action scenes.

For me , what I cherish most about my time spent in front of a screen ( playing computer games ) is when all factors collide together to create the best setting for the story to shine.

The story is the KEY here for me – it makes the time spent worth while - so the story is the most important factor ( properly presented and directed of course ) ,something that you can take with you , a through and idea a feeling, like SYBERIA or GRIM FANDANGO – it's the characters the journey you remember – SO, the better it is , the more thought out it is and the more grown up about its self ( why not aim high ? ) the more memorable it will become ( as I believe, ALL of us react to a well told / interesting story in the same way – we get captivated and remember it, that is its worth ! )

So , if the designers can manage to weave the story with relevant action elements fluidly, than all the power to them (If it works ?! ) – puzzles , action or graphics are only good if the story is . ( they are all needed but they need to be truly integrated within the tale, for them to flow seamlessly and react properly ) –

- IM going to confess something here – I play adventure games for the stories they tell FIRST MOST ! ( and when a challenge melds seamlessly with the story , then you have a bonus , something like DEUS EX or ANACRONOX or SYBERIA or TLJ or GABRIEL KNIGHT etc. ) -


But in the end the story rules – it's the lifeblood of every worthwhile game ( games that become more than just a passing transitory distraction . . . )

IM so pleased to see some members of revolution software on the boards here , SO whatever you creative kids do ( up in YORK at REVOLUTION ) – take care of the story and the way it unfolds / develops, ensuring that it DOES something to you – be that an adventure to remember of a feeling that you take at the end of the game or a concept / idea that strikes a cord ( and I'll be happy as long as the action is accessibly integrated, and I hope that goes as well for all those people who like stories , or like them and don't know it, when it comes to console players )

Story and characters are my own personal love. If I could work out how to do a game without any of the action, puzzles, etc. and just concentrate on the story and characters, I'd be happy.

Is it very difficult to make a game with action puzzles or arcade sequences and either make it possible to skip them if desired or make them easy for adventurers and tougher for those who like action? I know games have been produced in the past (like Curse of Monkey Island) that allow the player to choose whether or not they want to play arcade-type sequences on their own or allow the computer or some device in the game control over the sequence. If this sort of flexibility in programming makes the game too expensive to manufacture, perhaps it could at least be possible to push the escape key and skip a sequence if that is preferred. I know that I wouldn't mind action sequences in a truly story-driven game if I knew that I could skip them if they were too irritating or difficult. Just my two cents.
Happy gaming,
Beth