The lack of mature adventure games

Hello, dear Gameboomers!
The following post was originally posted on Adventure-Treff.de today as a column in German language. I have to appologize if the German version is better formulated, but I guess that you will get my point anyway.

I said some things in this column that I really wanted people to hear - no matter if they agree or not, so I thought that an English translation would make sense. Here it is:

“I try not to limit my thinking about the powerful nature of the story because it´s a computer game. I think that we can make computer games that are just as good as any other form of entertainment.” It was the year 1993 when today’s adventure icon Jane Jensen spoke these words during the creation of Gabriel Knight: Sins of the fathers – a year that would change my life. Growing up with Larry, Monkey Island and similar games I nearly couldn’t believe what was going on on my screen.

While I used to think that adventure games were only meant as a humorous way of spending your time, in Sins of the Fathers I experienced something entirely different for the first time. A mature game with extremely well fleshed out characters, a brilliantly written plot and the type of atmosphere that soaks you in like a great book that you just can’t put out of your hands - a game that didn’t have to hide from what was going on in Hollywood at the time.

Perhaps I was too young to describe my experience with adequate words at the time, but even then it seemed to me like Jane Jensen had opened the door to a new world. Like a promise of an exciting new era her words seemed to me - an era in which talented authors would lead us to the maturity of the adventure game genre with mature storylines, psychologically fleshed out characters and the provocation of true emotions.

Well, in the meantime 18 years have passed, I’m 29 now and Jane’s words still ring in my head. Unfortunately, though, the excitement of these times has turned into disappointment and disillusion. In retropect, I can say that real autor games have stayed the exception since the release of Sins of the Fathers while especially the German publishers release one wanna-be-funny game after the other. And even the allegedly more serious titles, that are out there as well, seem so incredibly empty to me with their shallow characters and stories that I feel nothing but fooled as a mature player.

Of course, you’ve got your great exceptions like Overclocked here and there, but until this day that type of game has remained the exception. Instead we’re seeing plenty of games that are being written by not too talented authors, if they were even written by classical authors at all, that – with their often rather childish type of graphics – seem to be adressed to an audience that I don’t belong to. Of course I don’t want to disallow anyone to look forward to games like Haunted, Deponia or Die Viehchroniken. Generally it is not my intention to [blip] the sub-genre of humorous comic adventures, just because they don’t struck my personal nerve. But what is lacking is a serious counterweight of real author games, that are aiming for a mature audience and don’t give me the feeling of being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

To get to the point: I’m seeking for true emotions, deep psychological conflicts, characters that feel like real human beings – characters that don’t give me the feeling the totally empty and shallow main protagonist only exists because there’s gotta be some you control while you’re solving tons of more or less creative puzzles. Well, I’m not looking for occupational therapy, I am looking for interactive experiences that make me forget the world around me like a good book. The fact that nearly no one out there satisfies my needs impressively shows that the adventure game genre, which likes to call itself story-driven, not only can’t compete with other mediums of storytelling like films, but in fact is lightyears behind these other mediums.

In the last year Heavy Rain has proven how different things can be. Now one could argue that Heavy Rain had a budget that “normal” adventure developers can only dream of, but this is a statement that couldn’t be more wrong. Because in the end Heavy Rain had to offer some basic virtues that can be regarded completely seperately of the budget. That the provocation of emotions and the usage of complex characters is not a question of money is for example proven by Dave Gilbert and his Blackwell series – even if it uses comic graphics. We are talking about virtues here that players in fact should demand as self-evident. Virtues, that nearly no publisher or developer seems to even care about.

We can find a key role for all of this in the not existing relevance of real authors. And only if publishers and developers finally understand how much power to create interactive experiences with depth that take the mature audience by the hand and that have the potential to appeal to a new audience they would have in their hands with good authors, we can change something. I’m sure that there are enough good authors out there – as proven by Daedalic with Kevin Mentz in A New Beginning. However, there simply is a lack of sensibility when it comes to the people in charge and for me that is nothing but an infamy 18 years after Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers.

In this sense, dear adventure genre: I have grown up since my first encounter with Sins of the Fathers. Unfortunately, you missed to through the same process at the same time. Over 20 years I spent with you, but the time has come to get rid of your puerile clothes. For the time being, I still stick with you, aside of all my disappointment and frustration, but there might come a day when I will turn away from you in biterness if you don’t finally realize that the time has come for a radical change. Some people might see me as whistle-blower for my words, but all that I want is to witness the day when the words of Jane Jensen are the rule and not a seldom exception!

Ingmar Böke

THanks Jack!

You don't have to have grown up playing adventure games in order to appreciate the story and characterizations in the Gabriel Knight games. If you come into gaming later than the author did, you have a choice of adventure games published over the years. When you play Gabriel Knight, you often end up thinking "Why aren't there more games with stories like this?" And when you ask for titles of similar games in the forums, very few measure up.

Games like Heavy Rain automatically exclude a lot of the audience who might enjoy the story. The Wikipedia describes the gameplay:

How is the average non-gamer (or slow gamer) supposed to take the story seriously when it has that kind of arcade nonsense thrown on top of it? I played Indigo Prophecy (Fahrenheit), which has the same type of "Simon" controls, and though the story was better than average, the gameplay was frankly a pain.

If I want a story, I can always read a book. Don't underestimate the importance of the gameplay. The type of gameplay determines who will play a game more than the story.

"Don't underestimate the importance of the gameplay. The type of gameplay determines who will play a game more than the story."


Thank you, Jenny, for articulating the objection to games like Heavy Rain that many of us have but can't put as well.

Gil.

Well said, Jenny; I did not play Heavy Rain for exactly that reason - for fear of the speed elements of the gameplay.

Regarding the game storylines these days, I take your point Jack, that there are many shallow storylined games out there, and I have felt it harder to find games I could fully immerse myself in during the last few years. A recent tragedy in my opinion has been the growth of casual games which use the guise of the adventure game in order to get you to buy them, often using very similar titles and covers to confuse buyers into buying them rather than the adventure game they were 'based on' (in name only). As you say, there are always exceptions; 'goin downtown' and 'lost horizon' both had very immersive storylines (and overclocked). I am playing The Dream Machine at the moment and it talks about Freud and psychology and strange viewpoints and is definately very mature, and it is pretty immersive too (in as much as a make believe clay world can be!). I am also reviewing a new experimental type of game for a fellow Gameboomer (Enter the Story) which is mature and is book based and the game I am looking at currently is based on the Count of Monte Christo. Maybe you should contact Enterthestory and take a look at that. It is in development stage but very interesting with unusual graphics.

I definately would like more immersive storyline games, so listen up, developers!! And I am prepare to pay for them; Piracy is one reason The Dream Machine makers decided to keep their game online play only - they did not want what happened to Machinarium to happen to them, game developers / the gaming industry ought to earn money for their hard work, and if they earned more money maybe they would have more to plough back in and make even better games.

I still think Gabriel Knight 2: The Beast Within is the best computer game that I have ever played. I loved playing as both Gabriel and Grace and it was the first game that ever made me really care about the characters.

The Longest Journey fell into this catagory for me too and the Black Mirror series deserves mention.

Gabriel Knight : Sins of the Fathers is still my absolute favourite game of all time too and I haven't yet played a game to beat it - but then again, it's not everyone's cup of tea

And every game player would like their preferences prioritised - but developers, like anyone else, have to "put food on the table" so the majority will obviously use the market wherein their games sell best

For many years now, I have dipped my own toes into most styles of Adventure games.
Not only to experience what is actually available out there but also to support the developers, who, if they haven't given me what I like best this time, very well could next time

Do you think they will? If "action" adventure games sell better than those that don't require fast reflexes, do you really think the majority of developers will make adventure games for those who can't or don't much care to demonstrate how nimble their fingers are? I don't.

Evidently, in Germany they still enjoy and buy point and click adventure games so the genre is alive and well there; but we have to wait and hope that a game like The Book of Unwritten Tales will ever make it to the UK and US becauses the market for them in English is not particularly booming.

I've bought a few rpgs in my time (foolish me, I've never done very well with one) but I really don't think I'm going to support any developer who makes adventure games that are well-nigh unplayable for me because they contain timed/action sequences in the hopes that next time they'll give me what I want.

edit~ Mr. Böke's complaint that "the adventure game genre, which likes to call itself story-driven, not only can’t compete with other mediums of storytelling like films, but in fact is lightyears behind these other mediums" doesn't hold water. Games are not in competition with films, they require more of you than staring at a screen and are very likely more difficult to write; not to mention that I doubt very much the majority of films are any better written than the majority of adventure games, taking into account the vast difference in the numbers of one over the other. And though I realize he's griping for himself, not everyone wants to be inundated with realistic plots and characters. A good story doesn't necessarily demand enough meat to keep Freud or Jung happy or believable characters with emotional depth.

...speaking for myself, who sees enough 'drammer' in real life and doesn't much crave it in games.


Gil.

Yes, I do think they will !!

Despite the "death of adventure games" having been a popular drum for some to beat for years, I've never yet, in at least the last fifteen years, not been able to find one that I enjoyed OR had to do without entirely

They haven't always been the best quality productions or even what I, personally, might like best and they haven't always been put out by major studios.

But they HAVE been kept alive

And the only way to keep them alive is to buy them when they're offerred

I kind of agree with the OP. There really aren't many AG's that deal with real emotions, or delve into more complicated issues. To many cartoony type games for my tastes personally, both in the art style and stories they tell. Also to many that rely on inane puzzles that have nothing to do with the story being told to extend gameplay length.

While games like Indigo and Overclocked had their share of problems, they at least dealt with mature subject lines in a fairly intelligent way.

A very thoughtful opinion but I don't completely agree. I find the hybrid type game very annoying. In my opinion having to jump through action scenes does not advance the story. A game requiring dexterity and fast reflexes distracts from an immersive story. To a great extent it prevents playing by the very people who enjoy detailed stories.

Though I did not specifically like Overclocked I can see why some would. I found many short comings and could not possibly compare it too Gabriel Knight. Where I disagree is that good thought out and well written stories do not have to be "mature" in the sense that I gathered Jack considered mature. Thought I may have misread his use of the word.

For instance the Longest Journey contained some of the best writing and detail of story found in any game I encountered. You will be hard pressed to find the number of well fleshed out and detailed characters that appeared in that game. Yes it was a fantasy, science fiction genre. But the story was a serious extrapolation in the science fiction "what if". The bases of any scifi story is what if we extrapolate a hypothesis to it's limit. Here we imagine parallel worlds artificially separated and the question of what happens if the barrier begins to break down. If you could not immerse yourself into the story and care about April and at least 15 other characters then you are not really interested in immersive story telling.

There have been numerous other games that fit the bill without creating a false hybrid to distract from the story. Consider any of the Sherlock Holmes games from Frogwares. Whether you like Sherlock or not you cannot deny the excellent writing and character portrayal.

I agree most games fall short of the ideal but there are a few each year that offer considerable meat to sink your teeth into. The Lost Crown for one. I could go on but you get the point.

"If you could not immerse yourself into the story and care about April and at least 15 other characters then you are not really interested in immersive story telling."

That's going a little far, oldmariner. I've played adventure games I didn't want to leave for something as trivial as food, sleep or work. The Longest Journey wasn't one of them.

Just saying.

Gil.

As for "story" and outlined characters in a game, then we have to remember, that for Gabriel Knight: Sins of the Fathers and Longest Journey - then they were written by actual writers, that were/are successful in writing.
Most games today aren't.

I did not say you had to like the game Traveler. I pointed to TLJ as having a well developed story with many sub plots. Each character was fleshed out in depth with their own persona. So many it is difficult to name all of them. The lament was few games have mature stories. I disagreed suggesting several highlighting TLJ because of its character development. The range of personalities is considerable just what game can you name that told as many stories inside a greater theme? There were dozens of characters you either loved or hated from the side kick, Crow to the college friends to the religious(Minstrum), to the mysterious rogue (Westhouse), to Cortez and many many others. When it comes to character development just what game comes close?

You either liked it or not but you cannot deny the creators gave you a highly developed detailed story with a huge cast of characters and in the end you knew who each were, unlike most games that barely scratch the surface beyond the main character or two and sometimes fall short there.

Well put.
A game that would facinate me would probably start with a notebook, some pencils and a lot of thinking, and not with a graphic design tool.

JackVanian -- a very intriguing post! I've been thinking about it. Bear with me because this will get a bit long.

Below I've listed adventure games from 2009 to the present that have mature, serious themes and enough of a story to provide plot twists and provoke debate. I'm not saying that any are as well-written as the Gabriel Knight games, but I think the list does show that developers are still making games with mature themes. (BTW, I'm sure I've accidentally left games out that fit the bill -- whenever I make a list, inevitably, I miss something -- but this is a start.)

2009 to the present

Yoomurjak's Ring
Still Life 2
Sherlock Holmes vs. Jack the Ripper
Memento Mori
Mata Hari: Betrayal is Only a Kiss Away
Dark Fall 3: Lost Souls
Casebook Episode 2: The Watcher and Episode 3: Snake in the Grass
The Blackwell Convergence
15 Days
Alpha Polaris
Alter Ego
Alternativa
Black Mirror II
Darkness Within 2: The Dark Lineage
Darkstar: The Interactive Movie
The Dream Machine Chapter 2
Enter the Story 3: Genesis of the Gods
Enter the Story 4: A Tale of Two Cities
Gray Matter
Lost Horizon
What Makes You Tick: A Stitch in Time
The Whispered World
Black Mirror III: The Final Fear
Conspiracies II: Lethal Networks
Gemini Rue
Goin' Downtown
A New Beginning

Note: some of the games rely on the environments and texts to flesh out the plot and characters more than character interaction, which is more acceptable to some gamers than to others. Of the games listed above, (I haven't played them all, so others on the list may qualify once I play them) the ones that I remember provoking "true emotions" (very subjective, but these are what provoked mine): Yoomurjak's Ring, Dark Fall 3: Lost Souls, the Casebook series, The Dream Machine, Enter The Story: A Tale of Two Cities, Gray Matter, The Whispered World.

I think part of what's going on is that story-based games are a relatively new medium, and developers are still experimenting with how to integrate story and gameplay. I admit that a lot of games have dialog that seems to have been written by programmers instead of by writers. Stories will be more satisfying and more psychologically intense as more writers of Jane Jensen's caliber become involved.

The linearity issue

Intricate plots in books, films and plays are (nearly always) extremely linear. Linearity in games, though, is something that gamers complain about, so developers try to make games at least somewhat nonlinear to give the gamer a sense of freedom. It's hard to tell an intricate story when you don't know exactly when the gamer will access a certain part of the gameworld or talk to a certain character. It's an additional challenge to storytelling, and not many writers who start out writing books or screenplays know how to do it yet.

The expense issue

Part of what's going on, too, is that games are developed in many different languages, and in some ways translating the dialogs into German, English, etc. is more challenging than if the dialogs had been originally written in those languages. It's hard to identify with a character when the translation is awkward.

Voiceovers are another issue. A dialog-heavy game that takes 15 hours to get through will have MUCH more dialog than a two hour film. Translating and professionally voicing all this dialog is expensive.

Publishers

Why haven't publishers demanded that professional writers are involved in games? Well, to be honest, my impression is that most publishers aren't gamers. The result is that, at least some of the time, no one at the publisher has played all the way through the game they are arranging to publish, so they don't know to demand better writing. Perhaps publishers still think that games are played by young people only, and young people don't care about writing? When, as a publisher, you see a lot of terrible translations, perhaps your standards are permanently lowered?

I couldn't agree more! That's why I decided to make my own. And use real classic novels instead of making up my own stories. (Current Game The Count of Monte Cristo, next game The Picture of Dorian Gray).

It's hard work though, and I made a lot of mistakes with the early games. I sometimes wish I'd tried something less ambitious. But I think with Monte Cristo it's finally starting to come together.

The guys as the AGS forums are great, and have been a huge help, but almost everyone seems to be making comedies, with a few people making mysteries. Likewise, the people at indiegamer all seem to be making casual games or shooting games. I just want a really good mature story. And by mature I don't mean sex and violence or grim and gritty, but something worth reading even if it wasn't a game.

Must a game be serious to be mature? Is it impossible to make a great, story-driven game with humor? Is linearity a curse and an open world where the gamer wanders around looking for a thread to catch hold of necessarily a virtue? If you don't like a game and simply long for it to be over, can it be called immersive? Are a huge cast of characters, branching subplots and 'psychological depth' prerequisites for a mature game that sucks you in and sweeps you along to its conclusion? Are professional writers really better than amateurs who love and understand gaming and the genre for which they're writing?

If Jane Jensen created a masterful game in Sins of the Fathers, it's not only because she's a professional writer but because she had paid her dues in the world of gaming at Sierra. She'd learned both sides of the craft. But Tim Schafer proves that you don't need a professional writer to craft a brilliant and memorable story-driven game.

No wonder I love Grim Fandango. The characters are deftly and subtly drawn by look and voice and gesture without need for tedious explanations. Every one of them is different, some sketched, some depicted in more detail but all with distinctive personalities.

The story drives inexorably to its conclusion. You know where you are going and that you'll probably get there, it's the journey that's such great fun and it's told without a heavy hand. It's filled with humor, satire, social commentary, pathos and Manny changes over the four years of his travels almost without your being aware of it until you look back, from a guy with one idea, getting out of his dead-end job, to someone who cares enough about his friends and those he's taken under his wing to risk being 'sprouted' for them.

The graphics are stunning, the music is marvelous and fits perfectly into the game and the voice acting is flawless. (Even Glottis.) This is what a 'linear' story can be and so seldom turns out to be. If this is not a mature game, I don't know what is.

Expensive? Well, yes, probably so. After all, it was produced by Lucas Arts. But aside from that, perhaps what it really takes to make a brilliant game is someone bubbling over with ideas, willing and allowed to take chances as well as willing to learn from the ones who went before. I doubt anyone wants them to make barely disguised clones of the great games but you only learn from the past if you pay attention to what it's telling you.

Yes, yes, I know. I'll just go quietly now.


Gil.

I just wanted to say what a great thread this has been. Very interesting reading. Boomers.

Perhaps we should define the term "professional writer." If someone who writes as well as Tim Schafer isn't one, then there aren't any in gaming.

And perhaps, also, the term "mature storyline" means different things to different people

You have a point there, Becky. While Jensen is a published writer, and calls herself a writer, I think, they both began their careers as programmers and learned their craft on the job, didn't they?

So would it be better to hire published writers (I'll put it that way) who know how to string sentences together for books or films but don't love adventure games, don't know how to write for them or have a strong desire to make them?

Both Jensen and Schafer have had infernally bad luck with their adventure games, and one can hardly blame him for taking his wild and wacky originality to other genres, but it seems like it would take a background in gaming and...oh, I don't know, a kind of creative hunger...to make the kind of games we'll remember and, more to the point, fork over for.

Could be wrong, I'm sure it's happened somewhere back in the mists of time. <g>

Gil.
(oh, I said I'd be quiet, didn't I. Well....)

Adding my 2 cents because Grim Fandango was the first adventure game that I played that got me hooked on adventure games. I finished LA Noire and the story line was wonderful. What it did that I think more action adventure games should do is gave you as this game did after 3 attempts; the option to skip the action sequence with no consequence to the story. I play shooters so for me I could get through the shooting scenes but I had to skip with a few driving sequences. It would be such a wonderful option to add to any adventure game that has action or as I hate with a passion a timed sequence.

Jack thank you for sharing your opinion. It's certainly sparked an interesting discussion.

Gil -- I agree that a writer who is also a programmer is better suited to developing games than a writer whose only experience is writing novels or screenplays. Writing and programming are both very demanding disciplines, and those who can do both well are (from what I can tell anyway) rare. I suspect that Jensen and Schafer were good writers from the beginning.

If, as a gamer, you struggle through hours of poorly written or translated dialog, you wonder why they didn't hire a writer because the writing has such a direct impact on the gaming experience. Maybe by three or four games later, the writing will have improved as the developer/programmer hones his/her skills. A lot of gamers aren't that patient, though.

BTW -- I am frequently surprised, when reading interviews with developers, how many develop adventure games but don't play adventure games. Sometimes they are so busy with the development process that they stop playing games altogether. Or they are developing adventure games but play action or strategy games in their free time (they'll cite a couple of adventure games they played as kids, but that's it).

Ramona -- the skip option for action sequences is a wonderful idea for people like me who are "reflex-challenged."

"I suspect that Jensen and Schafer were good writers from the beginning."

I suspect you're right. <g>

"If, as a gamer, you struggle through hours of poorly written or translated dialog, you wonder why they didn't hire a writer because the writing has such a direct impact on the gaming experience."

I came relatively late to gaming so you know a lot more about games and gaming than I do but ignorance doesn't seem to stop me so I have to ask if poorly translated dialogue really belongs in the same category as poor writing.

Some writers/programmers in non-English speaking countries (where a lot of AGs are made these days) may not have the bucks for a decent translation but clearly have the talent to write a good game - if they can afford to make them. (Thinking about Tol here though that's not really fair since he did a good job on the English version of ToH.) The sad thing there is that they don't have the backing of companies like Sierra or LucasArts were in their heyday to ensure they will have the chance.

I'll third that motion for a "skip the action" option!

Gil.

Late to the discussion, so not much to add except to say I echo the preference for "mature, story driven" adventure games. The Gabriel Knights were some of the best examples of that type, as was Grim Fandango. I do think this type of game is still being made, but the games of the same quality seem to be few and far between. Not to say they aren't enjoyable, just not of the same caliber. In the past year or two, I think Gray Matter has come the closest.

I will also fourth the motion for the "skip the action" option. I would love to play strong story driven games like Heavy Rain, but they are just too action oriented for my tastes. So I have to settle for watching this type of play through on YouTube.

venus, you're here! <g>

So what do you think a "mature, story-driven game" is?

Mr. Böke put his requirements this way: "I’m seeking for true emotions, deep psychological conflicts, characters that feel like real human beings...."

In effect, he seems to be looking for realism. At least that's the way I read it. And IMO, that restricts the field of what constitutes a good, well-written, compelling game too much.

Maybe I'm confused about the meaning of "mature" in regard to adventure games. I know what he thinks and I believe I know what oldmariner thinks but what about you?

Gil.

I'm not "venus" but here I am anyway !!

"Mature" for me would be when adult characters behave in a definitely adult way - whatever the storyline.

So I would say (for me) many older games (some already mentioned) qualify as having obviously mature story lines because of their "adult" issues or content.

For instance :

Gabriel Knight [Series]
Phantasmagoria [Both]
The Blackstone Chronicles
Sanitarium
The Black Dahlia
Ripper
Tex Murphy [Series]

But the Broken Sword games actually carry a mature theme too - although the visually cartoon style characters of the earlier releases might dilute that effect.

Slightly more recent games of a mature aspect (also for me) would include :

Sherlock Holmes [Frogwares]
Still Life
Post Mortem
The Black Mirror [Series]

This is a great topic!

I have noticed that time and again I always return to the old classic adventure games when I want to immerse myself in a good story and interesting characters. I don't think this applies to only adventure games though. These days most game genres feel diluted to me. I think it's, because big companies want their games to please everyone. In the Gabriel Knight games you have to go through complete archives of information and you must for example go through a huge museum exhibition and look at all the items and read all there is to read. I found that extremely interesting and immersive, but I know some people definitely wouldn't.

I've played most of the TellTale adventure games (Sam&Max, Monkey Island, Back to the Future) and I must say that they have nice gameplay and stories, but I don't really get that much out of it. This might sound kind of stupid, but I sometimes think that older adventure games are like books and new adventure games are like tv series made out of a book. They are very compressed and offer you the bare necessities of creating an immersive atmosphere.

I worked on the team that created Alpha Polaris so I have first-hand experience on how difficult it is to create an adventure game, let alone a good one I can't really comment on how well we managed, since I'm just too close to the project to see it objectively, but I did realize a few things. As you have already discussed on this topic, immersion and interesting characters take A LOT of dialogue and background information about the characters and their surroundings. The atmosphere of the game is also a key factor. The music, the characters and the mood and feel of the game needs to sweep you in. I also feel that you should develop some emotions for the characters and care a lot about what happens to them. Even to this day I still wonder what happened to Gabriel and Grace and if they ended up dating

All of the things I mentioned above need the perfect surroundings to develop. You can't really create something very unique if you work in a big company where tasks are micromanaged and the end product is really noones lovechild. Independent developers have other problems resulting from lack of resources and time.

All in all I think that the game industry is changing and content is becoming more important than the visuals. Let's hope that this development brings with is some great games!

Far from sounding stupid, Veera, that's a very interesting observation!


Gil.

Arghghghg! I missed Alpha Polaris on my list. Adding it in now.

I agree!

That is a new one to me. I'll have to check it out Becky.

I prefer the more mature games also.

These games lasted all of 5 mins for me before I uninstalled them due to them being either too silly or childish

sam and max
nancy drew
vampyre story although i did actually get through it.
edna n harvey


im sure there are more....who knows tho due to the lack of new adv games i may be forced to play them

I'm not sure yet what's meant by 'mature'. If it means 'rooted in reality' then looking at the games I've enjoyed most, reality isn't much of a plus for me.

Gil.

You may have heard it said when growing up, "act mature, don't act like a kid." I knew what was meant when I heard that, and the consequences if I didn't comply. But does that saying necessarily apply to computer games?

Perhaps when "mature" is spoken of in relation to computer games it doesn't mean adult themes, real life experiences, but a game that has gone from diapers, to sneakers, to polished shoes. A game that holds the players' interest during play, makes the player want to continue playing, and doesn't resemble games written when computers first hit the mass market.

Perhaps it means a story line that grips you the way a good book keeps you up late because you can't stop reading. Perhaps it means a game that confronts your personality, the beliefs you hold, or the morals you hold to. Perhaps it means a game that challenges you as a human being and what it means to be human. Perhaps it refers to a game that makes you think as you play.

My gaming experience is very limited, but I seem to remember many good games were produced by small independent companies, mom and pop shops if you will. But those mom and pop shops were soon acquired by large companies when they started making names for themselves, and their games were making something of a profit. I believe this was the start when games starting showing their pixels.

Mom and pop shops cared about producing a good product, not that some large companies don't. It's just that "the bottom line" wasn't at the top of the list. Being swallowed by a large company causes things to change, including the order of importance when something is produced. Oh, yes, producing a good product is on that list just not the first line. Today, the bottom line is the first thing on the list, analyzing the projected profit compared to expenses should the project proceed. And the funny thing is, no one can fault a company for doing so because the computer software is such an "iffy" business.

But I believe there are times when the bottom line does interfere with the production of a first rate product, due to someone believing more will be made in this genre over the genre that made the name in the first place. As a result, you have developers who are excellent in one genre, trying to write for ones they know nothing about. And why should this be a problem, the question is asked when these developers express their dismay at the task. After all, a good mystery writer should be able to write a good science fiction story. Right? So the bean counter may believe.

We now come back to a question that's been asked again and again in this thread. What constitutes a mature game? Can it be defined? Should it be defined? Should I believe a game isn't mature on the word of another gamer? Doesn't our gaming experience play a factor in determining what's mature and what isn't? Isn't a person whose gamed for 30 years going to want something different than one who has gamed for 5? Or the gamer whose played since Sinclair was on the market compared to the gamer when PCs hit the mass market?

If you really want a definition for a mature game you'll have to look to yourselves for the answer. Only the individual can determine what is or isn't mature because only you know your likes and dislikes when it comes to computer games. Only you know what level of play will once more make you forget all the cares within the world.

Ah, traveler, I missed your post! So sorry for the delay!

It looks like in the interim, so many other posters have expressed it better than I could, but I will try to answer your question.

As far as realism goes, I like realistically drawn characters, but that doesn't necessarily mean the situations have to be based in reality. In fact, quite often, I prefer that they aren't. While I prefer intricate story lines, I like the escapism offered in fantastical situations. There are exceptions of course, such as Still Life, which is high on my list. Even with that game, though, one of my favorite aspects was going back and forth between the different time periods.

I know you're not a fan, but The Longest Journey is one of my top games, and I thought it did a good job of introducing you to a more grounded environment. Of course, it's a strange futuristic land as well, but it felt believable, and April felt like a real person with real concerns. Then, when Arcadia was introduced, her reactions felt quite natural which helped keep the immersion.

As for your favorite game (and one of mine, certainly ), Grim Fandango, the characters in this game aren't people at all, though they once were. Nevertheless, they feel very realistic and relatable. (Okay, why is the spell check telling me that "relatable" isn't a word? ) Manny's office environment was very recognizable, and my favorite place, Rubacava, seemed like a real place I'd like to visit.

Anyway, I suppose that was a roundabout way of answering your question. I suppose ultimately, realism is important to a certain extent because the "mature" game needs to express something the audience can identify with. And the themes presented have to be things we can understand in relation to our own lives, even if we haven't been through those things personally. Very often, however, fantasy and science fiction are good mediums to tell these stories with because you can use these things as metaphors. Plus, as I've said, escapism is always fun.

I feel the need to say agin that "mature content" means different things to different people so it will surely always be difficult to satisfy everyone

I really don't know what Mature Adventure Gaming is ...

Maybe some people want more Sex, Violence, but you can get that Hard Core Shooters...

I personally like AG's the way they are....Fantasy, and more Fantasy...

Well, I think what I'm getting from those who complain about the lack of "mature" adventure games is that they want games with more psychological depth, realistic graphics (FMV preferably) and people in realistic if perhaps hypothetical situations, even if those situations venture into the realm of the unlikely or even bizarre. And a good many of them, I get the feeling, would like more very hard games of the sort that would throw me, anyway, for a loop.

I may be wrong, won't be the first time.

So I'm thinking about it and the best I can come up with is that a mature game is one that has a serious theme - perhaps it would be better to say a universal theme - but it doesn't have to attack it; it can approach it with humor and subtlety and it doesn't have to involve window-on-the-world graphics. Which is not much of a definition, I guess. But it's not an easy thing to define, certainly not for this one person with one person's tastes and preferences. But, you know, it's interesting and worth a thought or two, IMO.

Gil.

Possibly 'mature' means 'as opposed to juvenile' (only Darleen03 can explain as the originater of the thread, although I suspect she didn't expect it to become so introspective and personal)?

Perhaps we might hear a bit more from Jack Vanian who first posted his ideas on this thread?

Jack Vanian had an accident shortly after he added the first post and is in hospital since then. I hope he will soon be able to be online again. I have visited him last friday and he's progressing well, so chances are good to see him here in the next weeks.

Hi neon. I had heard about the accident, but hadn't connected it with Jack. We are all hoping that he is recovering rapidly!

Thanks for letting us know.

Michael,

Send our GameBoomers well wishes for a fast and complete recovery to Jack Vanian.

Thanks.

I was also unaware of the connection of the injured to Jack. I too add my best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Ana

Sorry to hear about Jack. Best wishes for a fast recovery!!

That's not good.

Hope your getting around soon Jack.


Dunn T

Please count me in with any "well wishes"