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Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123351
06/27/03 02:05 PM
06/27/03 02:05 PM
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Massachusetts
friedmonky Offline OP
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Have you people read this yet? It is great!
http://www.justadventure.com/articles/Shut_Up!/shutup.shtm
Rusty

P.S. - I want Ray to be the US's next President! thumbsup


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123352
06/27/03 03:05 PM
06/27/03 03:05 PM
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bravo Ray bravo

Tough love is difficult to give - but these things needed to be said. You need an eye opener, go look at Action/console forums. They aren't anywhere as particular or critical of their games. Surprising, since new console games run 50.00 on average and stay pricy for quite a while.. Your column struck such a chord with me.

I also am mentally exhausted at times when people getting crazy mad about games before they are even released. It might be terrible - it might be amazing. Who knows til it is finalized and out for play. Now I am a huge believer in demos - so people can decide whether they want this or that game. But, nothing out there exists that will please everyone. So buy what you like - avoid games with the things that you hate, be they sliders, keyboard controls whatever. I don't get the need to attack others for liking what you don't, insisting that anyone who likes this game or that (which you hated) must be an idiot. There is not much of that type of posting here - but it rears it's ugly head every once in a while.

I have seen people in forums even blast a game that they downloaded as freeware. I could be wrong, but that seems to be the epitome of unrealistic expectations. It gets a bit bizarre at times. frown

Laura





Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123353
06/27/03 03:51 PM
06/27/03 03:51 PM
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Massachusetts
friedmonky Offline OP
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Very well said Laura thumbsup
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123354
06/27/03 05:10 PM
06/27/03 05:10 PM
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North aurora IL
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Thanks for the great link Rusty. I always enjoy reading Ray's opinion. (I'll have to watch my apostrophes from now on smile )

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123355
06/27/03 05:34 PM
06/27/03 05:34 PM
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hrmn... moving from 1 place to another without being seen..? Well, I guess that's adventure - unless the timing has to be exact to the millisecond or else you will die a horrible death - then I usually consider those more action oriented... wink

But other than that, I guess I pretty much agree with Ray's definition - if only the publishers and the store assistants agree with Ray's definition too (sorry for being slightly ignorant, but is Ray male or female?)

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123356
06/27/03 06:17 PM
06/27/03 06:17 PM
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Los Angeles
ray Offline
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Magician, that's a question the great minds of our time have been struggling with for almost 44 years now.


Procrastinate NOW!! Don't put it off!!
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123357
06/27/03 07:38 PM
06/27/03 07:38 PM
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Massachusetts
friedmonky Offline OP
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LOL!!! lol lol Good one Ray! I can't stop laughing now...
Rusty


Even monkeys fall from trees sometimes.
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123358
06/27/03 07:48 PM
06/27/03 07:48 PM
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Excellent article and a lot of things I've been thinking myself but not eloquent enough to voice. I might also point out that when I first started playing adventure games, (KQ 1 & 2 era) all games were keyboard driven and mouse driven games were pretty clumsy and still had keyboard control. How far we've progressed.


You laugh because I'm different
I laugh because you're all the same

Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

John
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123359
06/27/03 07:59 PM
06/27/03 07:59 PM
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LONDON - UK
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Great article !! bravo

– combative , reactive and very "free-flowing' / it pulled no punches with the language it used, it was viperous and it was great ! - but are you even American ? - to my mind, the "typical' American adventure gamer seems to be the gentlest of souls, and I find that really sweet, at least that is the impression I get from gameboomers, its all so friendly and nice. It is the kind of place where words like "heck or darn' float about because its so polite ( and I love it for that, its rare and friendly – and that's just fine ! ) – but it just goes to show that's really not true accress the board as far as all 'adventure gamers', and I really had no idea about how bad it can get !, judging by the letter you guys received . Now here is my point ( or at least what I would personally do . . . )

In such a vitriolic case, why do you not just completely IGNORE such a letter. Its such a juvenile, ignorant, zeno/homophobic, redundant piece of smoke ( only less consistent ) and such an obviously "primary school level' attempt at basic communication – just like FOX NEWS, its best to smile and switch the channel to something elese – ANYTHING !!! - "heck' even QVC is better by comparison, or in your case, immediately after reading the letter, delete or hurl it in the recycle bin ( and after you wash your hands, you move on ) – airing it just gives it oxygen - however much I liked your justified reply.


wink

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123360
06/28/03 01:14 AM
06/28/03 01:14 AM
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I really do agree with a lot of what Ray has said in this article. I would also like to say, at the risk of sounding paranoid, that Mr. Gaston's letter sounded a lot like a person doing a sarcastic impression of a "pure adventure gamer," perhaps trying to elicit the type of reaction Ray had to the letter. If Mr. Gaston isn't doing a send up of an adventure gamer, I can only say, "Thank God for Gameboomers!"
I usually agree with a lot of the things Ray says in his reviews of adventure games, so I'm not surprised that I agree with a lot of the things he said in the article. I grew up with adventure games, starting with the Sierra games that always included a bit of archery, sneaking about, running away from zombies and risk of dying. Therefore, I've always included games that include that sort of action in the adventure game category. That doesn't mean that games that include certain types of action are among my favorite types of adventure games; but then, games that include mazes and lever puzzles aren't my favorites either, and they are certainly adventure games. It all boils down to the fact that I tend not to notice action elements if they don't keep me from finishing the game because of difficulty and if the story is good enough to make them worthwhile. Thankfully, we have walkthroughs to help us through things like the dart board in The Rose Tattoo, so they aren't so much of a problem anymore, as they were in the days of calling the Sierra Hint Line, going through their voice mail tree at about 98 cents a minute and then finally figuring out that the character needs to aim for the head instead of the heart, etc.
I really am excited that the adventure game seems to be gaining a second wind, with a few good companies realizing that they have something to offer and that there is an audience for them with disposable income. I think it's a shame to dampen any sort of creative energy our new game designers try to exhibit, especially when the game hasn't even come out yet, or is freeware! I'm certainly willing to fight my way through a few battles or chase scenes if it means that I can play a sequel to The Longest Journey or games of that caliber.
Happy gaming,
Beth


What lies behind you and what lies before you are tiny matters compared to what lies within you.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123361
06/28/03 01:51 AM
06/28/03 01:51 AM
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MRNO, I think that the letters RAY receives are not from members of GameBoomers. I can readily understand that when you get enough of such letters as RAY refers to, the hair-tearing state can be reached and all the annoyances and irritations that have built up can be relieved only by a good healthy vent. mad

His definition of Adventure games is sufficiently broad to handle all of the games that I have enjoyed.
Quote:
ADVENTURE GAME: A computer/video game wherein the gameplay is a mixture of story, exploration and puzzle solving (in almost ANY ratio of the three), WITHOUT containing SIGNIFICANT combat elements.
Now it may also include games that I wouldn't care for, but that doesn't bother me.

I happen to dislike keyboard-controlled games since I generally take notes and have my notebook in front of me and my keyboard off to the side. Note-taking is not easy when there are timed puzzles or action bits, but if unlimited saving is possible, I can live with it. I imagine that a keyboard-controlled game could at least be adapted to a joystick or keypad or some modification of a "mouse" sufficiently small that I could have my "notebook" in front of me in easy writing position. If so, then I could probably adapt.

Also, there can be action which isn't timed. No problem. That's just like a puzzle. As far as technical improvements, such as 3D, well, I called them "improvements" and that's what I consider them to be. Such technical changes aren't necessary for me to enjoy an Adventure game, but they do add to it. How about voice-controlled action? I'm really waiting until they get some REAL improvements, say virtual action helmets. Yah! laugh laugh laugh


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123362
06/28/03 10:48 AM
06/28/03 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by ray:
Magician, that's a question the great minds of our time have been struggling with for almost 44 years now.
Hey, you're pretty much my contemporary. laugh

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123363
06/28/03 10:50 AM
06/28/03 10:50 AM
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Ah Ray, you've outdone yourself this time lol Great article and unfortunately all too true. We adventure gamers do seem to whine more than most, don't we? But it seems to have always been that way - when adventure games first came out they were text based and keyboard controlled. Then Sierra (I think they were the first) had the nerve to make a game that used action icons and something called a mouse! I remember the hue and cry about how that stupid mouse was going to ruin the genre and why can't we go back to using a keyboard and typing in commands like we used to rolleyes

It appears to me that what we are seeing is a return to our roots and if you doubt me - play the first four King's Quest games (it was KQV that introduced that nasty, wicked, genre ruining mouse wink ) Then come back and scream about action and keyboard usage in the new games - especially after you've tried to climb a certain whale's tongue for the 50th time lol


Dark Side : Risen
Light Side:

I can only please one person a day. Today isn't your day. Tomorrow's not looking good either.
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123364
06/28/03 11:03 AM
06/28/03 11:03 AM
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Yorkshire
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Quote:
Originally posted by Advpuzlov:
Now it may also include games that I wouldn't care for, but that doesn't bother me.
This actually got me thinking.

I read a fair bit of fantasy and absolutely loved Lord of the Rings when I first read it 30 years ago. This doesn't mean that I want every fantasy novel I read to be like LOTR. There are fantasy novels I've hated and haven't even finished and ones that really push the boundaries of the genre (like Perdido Street Station by China Mieville which I love). But I never for one minute question whether they should be allowed into the genre. I might be baffled why publishers take up weak novels, but that will be as far as I take it.

Why are adventure games so different?

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123365
06/28/03 12:00 PM
06/28/03 12:00 PM
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southeast USA
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bryansmom:
I would also like to say, at the risk of sounding paranoid, that Mr. Gaston's letter sounded a lot like a person doing a sarcastic impression of a "pure adventure gamer," perhaps trying to elicit the type of reaction Ray had to the letter.
I wondered about that myself.

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123366
06/28/03 12:09 PM
06/28/03 12:09 PM
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Ray's article made me think about how the term "action puzzle" in reference to puzzles in the adventure genre doesn't really seem to fit. Firstly, because the word "action" has been used as a euphemism for combat (and other things) in a different genre, and this creates confusion when using the same word in the adventure genre. And, secondly, because it isn't really the best way to describe the kinds of puzzles I mean when I use it.

EVERY puzzle in an adventure game seems to require an action to implement the solution. It might be pressing a button, or closing a door, but it's an action. The kinds of puzzles I've been calling action puzzles are the ones where you solve the puzzle in your head, but must use varying amounts of skill to implement the solution.

Skill puzzles are those that require you to shoot arrows with accuracy, or walk a tightrope before a giant spider gets you, or 'leap a tall building in a single bound...' that kind of thing. Does the term "skill puzzle" seem to be a better fit to you guys, too?

It took me hours of trying over three days to successfully shoot an arrow through a target in Timelapse. I hated it! I was determined to finish the game, so I kept at it, but I didn't feel elation when I finally did it. I felt relief, followed closely by fear that my game would get corrupted and I'd have to do it again! I saved a bunch of extra saved games so I wouldn't have to. Man, I hated that!

I don't automatically hate skill puzzles. I play games for fun and relaxation. If a skill puzzle isn't too hard, and if it doesn't involve doing something unpleasant while I master the skill, it's not enough to prevent me from playing a game. But if I read that the puzzle is very hard, and that people are having to beg for saved games to get past it, even after getting coaching on the hints board, I would hesitate to buy that game. It would have to an awesome game to tempt me to face a hard skill puzzle, especially if there is a time limit.

smile

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123367
06/28/03 12:35 PM
06/28/03 12:35 PM
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Los Angeles
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Perdido Street station is an AMAZING book.


Procrastinate NOW!! Don't put it off!!
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123368
06/28/03 12:35 PM
06/28/03 12:35 PM
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Portland, Oregon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diamond:
Quote:
Originally posted by Advpuzlov:
[b] Now it may also include games that I wouldn't care for, but that doesn't bother me.
This actually got me thinking.

I read a fair bit of fantasy and absolutely loved Lord of the Rings when I first read it 30 years ago. This doesn't mean that I want every fantasy novel I read to be like LOTR. There are fantasy novels I've hated and haven't even finished and ones that really push the boundaries of the genre (like Perdido Street Station by China Mieville which I love). But I never for one minute question whether they should be allowed into the genre. I might be baffled why publishers take up weak novels, but that will be as far as I take it.

Why are adventure games so different? [/b]
I was thinking about that very point while reading and responding to a thread on dead-ends in games and why in general people are so adamant about their likes and dislike in computer gaming and the best I could come up with was the interactive quality of the art form. Books and movies, while requiring your attention and differing amounts of time to digest aren't the same as a computer game where you can invest up to 80 hours of game time. Also having an interface with which to interact with the art form (in this case, the computer game) makes it much, much more personal to the viewer/gamer/audience. I think gamers feel they have a very personal stake in the outcome of the genre and feel this much more deeply than all but the most rabid fans of other art forms, like literature or cinema.

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123369
06/28/03 03:14 PM
06/28/03 03:14 PM
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Becky Offline
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Are adventure gamers more afraid of change than other gamers? Do we complain more vociferously than other gamers or more frequently? Are we less happy with taking risks?

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123370
06/28/03 05:19 PM
06/28/03 05:19 PM
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Well, I think we are lucky that game developers try to satisfy a diverse group of people such as ourselves.. looking at it logically..

If we all liked the same things, life would be boring.

If Every game was perfect, we would have nothing to talk about.

If Every game were identical in style, with just location and puzzles different, they would eventually get boring.

The developers try to make something new and refreshing and they get slated?? Umm could you Imagine if we had all been so close minded when Coca Cola was released.. I'm not trying that, we drink water in our home!! Just think what we would have been missing!! OK, just before someone says anything, what about the Coke lovers who would turn their noses up at Pepsi without even trying it?? Each to their own!!

Well seems Mr Gaston got his 30 seconds of fame.. hope he's happy.

Ray, PLEASE keep writing your articles, I Love them!!

Hugs

Tig wave


A bounce a day keeps the doctor away!!
Playing Sims2, Sherlock, Phantom of Venice
Reading Storm Breaking
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123371
06/28/03 06:29 PM
06/28/03 06:29 PM
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Hrmn - that bow/arrow puzzle in timelapse took me about 5min to complete on my very first run through of the game... I guess I got lucky wink

Hrmn.. would action puzzles (or as Kehrin puts it, skill puzzles) be more agreeable with adventure gamers if the time limitation element was totally removed from it and we could take as long as we want, or else could have as many goes as we'd like? Would it also be ok if all that was needed to solving a skill based puzzle is in knowing the trick (ie. if we first read in a walkthrough the exact steps and sequences we should do the timed events, we'd be able to replicate without flaw)?

I'm just thinking about the bits near the end of Gabriel Knight games - there were a lot of heavily timed based events (not so much as puzzles but you be the judge) that needed to be completed within a relatively short amount of time. Even after reading the walkthrough for the end-sequence of GK, I find I had to replay the ending sequence in all 3 GK games (especially GK1 and 3).

The ending sequence of Zork Nemesis, on the other hand, though timed, gave the player a (ridiculously) large amount of time to complete the required step - which I never minded and in fact enjoyed!

Becky, I think other gamers complain loudly as well - but the formulae for success in say a strategy game (such as Warcraft) is probably a lot simpler than an adventure game. The concepts involved is only balancing the different sides in terms of skills and abilities. Very little thought is required in terms of originality, creativity etc in those games (I believe - although if the strategy game did contain creativity, it naturally earns bonus marks).

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123372
06/28/03 10:36 PM
06/28/03 10:36 PM
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southeast USA
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Action games have cheats and save game editors to get the gamer past difficult spots in the game where they might be stuck forever otherwise.

Adventure gamers ain't got nuttin' if they're stuck on a timed or "action" or "skill" puzzle. They can ask for a saved game online if they know where to ask. And usually (but not always) saved games are transferrable. Otherwise the gamer is SOL. Very few adventure games allow you to skip puzzles. For inventory puzzles and non-action puzzles there are hints and walkthroughs. But if a timed/action/skill puzzle is too difficult for a gamer, there's very little that can be done about it.

I find it odd that what most adventure gamers agree is the absolute worst part of an otherwise enjoyable game is being excused so easily in this discussion. One person takes days to get past the arrow puzzle in Timelapse. Another takes 5 minutes. I guess I took about 10 to 15 minutes to get past it, but I was cursing and blaspheming the whole time at the d%@! thing. I was not enjoying myself and I make no apologies for having my own opinion about what I like and what I don't like. And I don't like having to repeat the same d%#! thing over and over when I'd much rather be doing something else.

How many people essentially met a dead end at the end of the Gabriel Knight games when they couldn't get past the mummies or the wolf or whatever? It was very tricky to transfer a saved game between computers for GK1. I seem to remember other Sierra games having similar problems with transferring saves. And adventure gamers who weren't able to complete the games complained bitterly about these "skill"-based "puzzles" - just as bitterly as those who met a dead end in an older game and had to go back to a much earlier save (assuming they had the heart to continue playing, which some didn't).

How many people never saw the end movie to Sanitarium because they couldn't get past the oil slick puzzle at the end? (which was quite a bit more difficult than the crow puzzle mentioned in Ray's article because all the crows you shot stayed dead while you didn't but the oil slick refreshed itself when you croaked).

I forget how many times I've emailed my saved game for after the Pendulum Room in Watchmaker to some poor gamer who was unable to get past it. It took me over an hour of cursing and blaspheming to get that save. Imagine how many people bought Watchmaker, got stuck there, but didn't know anything about Gameboomers or other adventure forums or newsgroups. Think they'll ever buy another adventure game?

Adventure games should be playable by anybody regardless of physical dexterity. What other game genre is there that they can play? There are plenty of games around for gamers who have good reflexes and no physical limitations. How many games are there for those who are not so fortunate and have developed arthritis or repetitive motion disorders or have their arm in a cast?

And besides those who can't handle action/skill/timed puzzles there are those who simply don't like them in an adventure game. As much as I enjoyed American McGee's Alice and Darkened Skye, I would not want to find action-based puzzles like those games had in an adventure game.

I play adventures when I want to relax and think.
I play action-oriented games when I want to jump and run around in 3D. I do not want to have to test my reflexes during an adventure. Nor do I want to have to stop and think a long time about an adventure-type puzzle while playing an action-oriented game. It's a different mindset when I'm playing an adventure from when I'm playing an action-oriented game and I don't like having to shift gears in the middle of the game. Mainly I don't like being forced to do something when I want to do something else. So to me an arcade-type or timed puzzle in an adventure is a flaw, just like a dead end or a game bug. The same puzzle might not be a flaw in an action-oriented game (though generally I don't like being timed period).

+_+_+_+_+_+_+

This discussion started with some troll writing an abusive email to JA+ and Ray writing about it - taking the bait. You know what a troll is? It's someone who writes something simply for the purpose of getting a reaction. They don't necessarily even believe what they're writing. They just think it's funny to get a reaction, no matter what that reaction may be. And this particular troll was successful in getting his email published on JA+. I wouldn't be surprised if JA+ got even more emails from trolls now. I hope they're more original than this one was.

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123373
06/28/03 11:58 PM
06/28/03 11:58 PM
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USA
Advpuzlov Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kehrin:
... Skill puzzles are those that require you to shoot arrows with accuracy, or walk a tightrope before a giant spider gets you, or 'leap a tall building in a single bound...' that kind of thing. Does the term "skill puzzle" seem to be a better fit to you guys, too? ... I don't automatically hate skill puzzles. I play games for fun and relaxation. If a skill puzzle isn't too hard, and if it doesn't involve doing something unpleasant while I master the skill, it's not enough to prevent me from playing a game. But if I read that the puzzle is very hard, and that people are having to beg for saved games to get past it, even after getting coaching on the hints board, I would hesitate to buy that game. It would have to an awesome game to tempt me to face a hard skill puzzle, especially if there is a time limit. smile
There you have it! If a skill puzzle has a time limit, that is a real turnoff for me. There was one "skill puzzle" that I never did conquer, despite numerous attempts. It was the "bubble blowing" challenge in QUEST FOR KARMA. I had no great difficulty with any of the previous puzzles, but trying to maneuver those "bubbles" seemed to be beyond my capacity. So, there that games stands, still unfinished.


It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle
Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123374
06/29/03 02:23 AM
06/29/03 02:23 AM
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Portland, Oregon
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Posts: 1,118
Portland, Oregon
I guess I've been lucky so far. I haven't hit any reflex stuff I couldn't handle. Timelapse, Sanitarium, all the GK's. Course when I have the choice I alway play on easy or god mode in other genres. I'm not a macochist. And I do get a little flustered at sudden shifts in pace and at first that used to really steam me. I adjusted my thinking and now I think of it like a good double expresso. I just think, "hang on....here we gooooooo......" Heh.

Also, don't underrate yourselves. Tons of people can't do difficult puzzles. The main complaint I read on other genre forums is how hard and brain busting and utterly impossible and illogical adventure puzzles are. I don't think adventures are at all the genre "everybody can play". It just ain''t so.

Re: Ray Ivey's Shut-up article... #123375
06/29/03 04:26 AM
06/29/03 04:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 541
Yorkshire
Diamond Offline
Settled Boomer
Diamond  Offline
Settled Boomer

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 541
Yorkshire
Quote:
Originally posted by ray:
Perdido Street station is an AMAZING book.
Now if they made that into an adventure game...

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