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Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100] #264509
01/18/08 12:39 PM
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Jenny and Becky:
Click to reveal..
When you start wondering around with Zoe in that purpulish underwater area, you keep hearing a distant "mmm mmm mmm mmm"... Be attentive. I play games with loud speakers, cause I like to create atmosphere (that's why I get scared so many times smile ). If you don't remember it, Jenny, you probably simply didn't notice it. It's distinct and in the background.
While you girls are at it, try and notice the soundtrack of that place - it has, as I've said, these magical 4 tunes, as a base for the whole piece. It's like, a repetetive part. Very beautiful.
Good luck on finding it!


Volkana, there are *some* challanges to it, but if anyone would come to me seeking a good puzzle game, I would definitelly not recommend it.
I'd recommend Myst, most of all. Especially 3, 4 and 2.

By the way, our discussion reminded me of the questions: what's more important in a song? The lyrics or the music?
In the case of a song, I know that one with good lyrics, but bad music, would probably not attract me in the first place, so I won't get to know it, while a song with good music but bad lyrics would attract me, only to discover it's empty smile.
I would call the "music", in this case, the puzzles and graphics.
And the lyrics - that's the story.
For me.

Last edited by Tomer; 01/18/08 12:42 PM.

There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #264539
01/18/08 01:43 PM
01/18/08 01:43 PM
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Ah, Dreamfall! If sales were proportional to the controversy a game creates, then Funcom would have made a fortune. The current dialog is reminiscent of threads that went on and on about the time the game was released. I don't think that even the recent Limbo of the Lost dust-up had as much controversy as this game generated.

Click to reveal..
While on the subject, oldmariner stated something earlier in this thread that I'd like to see. It would be another thread where people could think up ways to resurrect April in the next installment with the very important provision that the means would not be cheesy. As I see it, that will be Ragnar's biggest challenge if he chooses to do that at all. I won't start a new thread though because, in spite of what Becky thinks, I'm still not worthy.
yes


ray
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: RayBres] #264562
01/18/08 02:36 PM
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Hmmm...
Click to reveal..
Who says April needs to be ressurected? Moreover, April could still be "alive", someplace else - not on Earth. That little girl in Dreamfall - she died, yet she was still alive somewhere. It's not impossible, and I didn't find it cheezy at all


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Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #264604
01/18/08 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tomer
Hmmm...
Click to reveal..
Who says April needs to be ressurected? Moreover, April could still be "alive", someplace else - not on Earth. That little girl in Dreamfall - she died, yet she was still alive somewhere. It's not impossible, and I didn't find it cheezy at all


Click to reveal..
By cheezy I think the meaning was a way to bring April back that is believable. Not cheezy in the way she presumably died. However, there is nothing portrayed in the game that proved April perished. Two ways to look at this, Kian was having a life altering experience. He was questioning all that he believed and was gravitating toward accepting the rebel's position. From that we could accept that he only struck April with a "glancing" blow to mislead his antagonist. Or if we choose not to follow the redemption of kian path we can propose the blow did not pierce April's armor and she simply swam away under water.

My comment about April's resurrection was not about bringing her back from the dead. It was redeeming her spirit and creating for her a return to a positive view of life. The sparkle in this young woman and the love of life she had in game one was taken in this episode. I don't doubt for a moment April lives. It's my desire that Ragnar brings back someone close to the old April. I expected her to grow but turning her into a bitter unloving warrior is the most unforgivable sin created by Dreamfall

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner] #264688
01/18/08 08:08 PM
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I agree with you oldmariner, that the change in April was unforgivable, but since the name of the game is Dreamfall maybe Zoe dreamed the part where April starts and Zoe leaves. She was getting those strange messages about someone needing help and so she had a nightmare or whatever. I didn't finish the game so I have no idea what the ending was like. Maybe in a sequel Zoe would wake up and actually find our real April and make everybody happy. Oh well, I can dream too, can't I?


To love is to be happy with!
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy] #264734
01/18/08 09:54 PM
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I know I wasn't invited here, but it is an open forum. I liked DreamFall better the second time around. I kept wanting April and the Borderhouse, and in the end I didn't like her at all when she did show up. I think I did understand why she had changed. She had grown up and become very cynical. In her situation, who wouldn't be, I guess. I liked and understood it (especially the lock puzzles) WAY better than Culpa Innata, which I am currently replaying, but still confused about.
Give me Syberia, Still Life or better yet, a good old Tex Murphy game any day.

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy] #264821
01/19/08 04:55 AM
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The way it goes in Dreamfall, I guess the ressurection will be somthing like:
Click to reveal..

Kian: April, you're alive, how can this be?!?
April: I don't know. I just am.
Kian: White kin, how can she be alive? I saw her dying!!
White kin: What she is, is what she were, is what she would be, thus she is a part of the storytime, and therefore, she is.
Kian: *sigh*
smile


There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #265034
01/19/08 12:42 PM
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Don't you think
Click to reveal..
April has to be alive? I assumed she is the old lady who is telling the tale in TLJ.


"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole."
-Roger Caras
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: looney4labs] #265059
01/19/08 01:13 PM
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I am pretty sure I read this elsewhere:

Click to reveal..
The old lady in TLJ is "Lady Alvane" which is the last name of Kian. But I also remember reading either here or another forum that in one of the files on the game (someone decompiled it I think), "Lady Alvane" is referred to as "Old April".

Also we didn't actually see April die. We saw her get injured and fall in the water.


As for Dreamfall, I liked TLJ better as far as story, gameplay and characters. I really didn't feel that attached to Zoe or anyone else in Dreamfall except maybe Wonkers! razz Having said that, I will play the the new episodes whenever they come out. I'm like that though, I'll play every game in a series even if the subsequent games don't pull me in as the first one(s).

Like others, I felt it to be more of an interactive movie, sort of like how Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy is considered an interactive movie.

My final thought on this is that everyone likes different things in games. Some like the story better than the puzzles, some like puzzles better than the story. I like a good balance of the two but it really depends on the game as a whole for me.

Last edited by misa; 01/19/08 01:16 PM.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: looney4labs] #265105
01/19/08 02:41 PM
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Hi looney4labs, I thought exactly the same thing! smile

I replayed the Longest Journey after I finished Dreamfall - but even though Dreamfall, as a sequel, played so differently I did like it almost as much! I definitely would have included it as a recommendation on Flotsam's list for that year if it had not been for the more awkward interface.

There seems to be a lot of disappointment at the change in April's character in Dreamfall - but for the character there has been some time gone by between the ending of TLJ & her appearance in Dreamfall - I for one would love to know what happened to her inbetween! smile

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: chrissie] #265113
01/19/08 02:58 PM
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I think there was also disappointment that April wasn't the "hero" in Dreamfall. People wanted to see her story continue, not jump years ahead to where she's only a side character, and a cynical one at that.

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100] #265132
01/19/08 03:22 PM
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What about those strange messages that Zoe was getting on that screen showing that someone needed help of some kind? Was that April? What happened to Zoe at the end of Dreamfall since I never got that far? Everything is about April since this was supposed to be a sequel and I understand that part of it, but still Zoe has some connection now, but I don't know what it is. I feel like it was almost 2 games cobbled together! Which is very cynical, I know, but that's the way the game comes across to me. Seems my reactions never follow the crowd.


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Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy] #265222
01/19/08 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: sierramindy
What about those strange messages that Zoe was
Click to reveal..
getting on that screen showing that someone needed help of some kind? Was that April? What happened to Zoe at the end of Dreamfall since I never got that far? Everything is about April since this was supposed to be a sequel and I understand that part of it, but still Zoe has some connection now, but I don't know what it is. I feel like it was almost 2 games cobbled together! Which is very cynical, I know, but that's the way the game comes across to me. Seems my reactions never follow the crowd.


This has got to be all spoiler. You did not finish the game? Read at your own risk.

[spoiler]The doctor who supervised the creation and killing of the little girl turns out to be Zoe's mother. At the end of the game, (Editorial) the "mother" (if you could possibly call her that. We have some choice names for fathers who abuse their children well they can be applied to this "mother".) The doctor mother puts Zoe into a coma presumably so zoe can talk the little girl into letting go and moving on. She does not tell Zoe but her plan appears to be designed to get rid of Zoe as well. Zoe ends up in a coma the girl agrees to move on, end of game


We can only speculate but------

Click to reveal..
Why was the little girl wanting to "Save April" who knows? Perhaps she knows April is the only one who can defeat the sinister plot. It seems the child and zoe are sisters of a sort, same mother so to speak. The child tried to get Zoe to save April. The "mother" tried to do away with Zoe and the child. As Misa pointed out the story teller is Lady Alvane. Same last name as Kian. Ah does the warrior unite with April? Well it has been strongly suggested that April is Lady Alvane, that is one way to get there. Though I'd rather see April end up with Charlie. Who knows, lots of possibilities.
[/spoiler]

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner] #265340
01/19/08 11:44 PM
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Thanks, oldmariner,
I really was curious about Zoe, since she was the only one I cared about.

Click to reveal..
I remember now about her being put to sleep (well, I thought it was sleep so she could enter the dreamfall world or something like that) but coma works too. The child, if they had the same mother, would be a half-sister to Zoe. If Zoe is in a coma there is the chance she will come out of it in the next game if it is ever made. That's sort of comforting!


Since I'm not about to ever play the game again as I no longer even have it, I am very grateful that you took the time to fill me in on what happened. It's odd, but I feel better about the game now that you have explained about Zoe. The rest I don't care about as I never got involved with that part of the game and I don't understand all the fine points about the story.


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Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy] #265393
01/20/08 06:41 AM
01/20/08 06:41 AM
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oldmariner, you're forgetting something:
Click to reveal..
In the end, the little girl (hope) answers why she's been trying to make you save April Rian. She says the "White Lady" told her to, and that she's been there just before you did. I've always assumed that's the white kin, but I could be mistaken. Could be lady Alvane, as far as I know.

Another thing that really bothered me, is that the girl says that April has indeed been saved. Zoe wonders, since she saw her die (or injured). So, some would say her death was her saving.
But - what did Zoe do to cause her death? She obviously had no visible effect on April's life - April would have gone through the same route (as far as I can tell), with or without Zoe interffering with her life. So, how come Zoe saved her?!


There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #265414
01/20/08 07:53 AM
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Tomer -- I've often wondered that myself.
Click to reveal..
The only effect Zoe seems to have had on that last sequence in the Rebel's swamp home is to slow down April's two friends near the end -- they had to put Zoe to sleep so that she would leave the world and wouldn't be captured. Dealing with Zoe slowed down the friends' retreat. Could that have somehow saved April?

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #265630
01/20/08 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tomer
oldmariner, you're forgetting something:
Click to reveal..
In the end, the little girl (hope) answers why she's been trying to make you save April Rian. She says the "White Lady" told her to, and that she's been there just before you did. I've always assumed that's the white kin, but I could be mistaken. Could be lady Alvane, as far as I know.

Another thing that really bothered me, is that the girl says that April has indeed been saved. Zoe wonders, since she saw her die (or injured). So, some would say her death was her saving.
But - what did Zoe do to cause her death? She obviously had no visible effect on April's life - April would have gone through the same route (as far as I can tell), with or without Zoe interffering with her life. So, how come Zoe saved her?!


Yes it is true I forgot that little detail. Here is a bit of theory to address what you ask.

Click to reveal..
Remember in game one April learned how to breathe under water. Also this cliff hanger, hero falling into (something) during an attack, has been used endlessly in movie after movie. Nothing new here as there is nothing conclusive.

I believe the White kin is the white lady. She would have the "powers" to communicate with Faith. In more than one place in the game the White Dragon was referred to as the White Lady. How did Zoe save April? Here is a plot path that answers that question.

Well, here's my theory on why April's alive. Faith indicates that Zoe did indeed save April. Even though it seems that April was killed. However, as we know that almost everything in this story has a deeper meaning. What needed to be saved was April's faith. It comes back to my earlier statement about April needed to be resurrected. She had lost her faith, and it was that faith that Faith was telling Zoe to save.

A symptom of this lost faith was the loss of April's shifting abilities. If I am correct in assuming that it is April's faith that needed to be saved, and that Zoe saved it. She would have regained her shifting powers. Therefore, April shifted after being stabbed. Remember in T.L.J April needed to be stressed to shift. She shifted to who knows where, but just that idea that she shifted means that she's not dead. I won't ever forgive the writers if this in fact was the end of April. Perhaps the best game character ever. So T.L.J 3 will determine if Dreamfall was a dud or not.


Just a few ideas offered to further the speculation. You gotta admit there are many outs for the story writers here.

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner] #265680
01/20/08 02:42 PM
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Hmm, more going on here than I ever thought about. I'm character oriented, not plot oriented, so I missed a lot of the storyline without even noticing that fact, or caring really. Zoe left when April appeared as a main character and since I couldn't deal with April, I quit, my interest was gone. But reading this thread is very interesting because I'm interested in how other gamers see this game and the characters in it.
But what about the story writers? Are there any out there who really care enough to go on with the story? It is easy to guess at different ways the plot could go, but not necessarily all that easy to sit down and actually work it out in detail. That takes not only talent but some sort of inner vision or belief in the story itself, a commitment maybe, whatever. So, gamers might be ready for more, but are the writers? Time alone will tell, I reckon.


To love is to be happy with!
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy] #265700
01/20/08 03:30 PM
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I can answer that to a point. Ragnar Tornquist, the creator of the story is keeping quiet in regard to what happened. In interviews he has said the complete story is written. The plan is to release the rest in downloaded chapters. Something like Sam and Max I surmise. He has also stated that in the worst case he would release it in story format if the game did not come to be. He was quoted as saying we will not have to wait years either.

Considering the game is story/character driven and that it is an outstanding achievement in story telling we can assume Tornquist has worked out more surprises for us. Look at the product to date, the two games taken together are highly developed. I or the collective "we" may not like the direction it takes but the promise is that the story is written. Tornquist has an online blog and he answers reader's questions. So we can suppose he hears people's ideas. Not to say he will incorporate them but we can be certain he is aware of what people think and want. As an aside in his blog he commented that many people assumed that Stark was modeled after LA. He stated it is not, he was thinking Seattle/Vancouver while designing Stark. He also said Stark fared much better than Europe in regard to being depressed. I did not see where that was illustrated in DreamFall but that was his comment.

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner] #265722
01/20/08 04:41 PM
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Becky:
Click to reveal..
I don't see how slowing down April's companions indeed influenced somehow. It's kinda random smile. Don't have a better idea though.


Oldmariner:
Click to reveal..
What you said, about April being stressed and then shifting - that's probably the best theory I've read so far. What I still didn't get from you, is how Zoe's connected to all of that? What influence did Zoe have on April? April didn't get injured because of Zoe...


Oh, what I write is directed for everybody of course, but it's a response to what these people said smile.


There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #265758
01/20/08 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tomer
Becky:
Click to reveal..
I don't see how slowing down April's companions indeed influenced somehow. It's kinda random smile. Don't have a better idea though.


Oldmariner:
Click to reveal..
What you said, about April being stressed and then shifting - that's probably the best theory I've read so far. What I still didn't get from you, is how Zoe's connected to all of that? What influence did Zoe have on April? April didn't get injured because of Zoe...


Oh, what I write is directed for everybody of course, but it's a response to what these people said smile.


Tomer
I don't have definitive answers only speculation

Click to reveal..
Becky already pointed out that Zoe appeared to have no effect on April in that final scene. Slowing down her friends may have been it but not likely the whole answer. So how did Zoe save April? Staying with the notion that it was April's spirit that needed saving perhaps it was Zoe's presence that did the trick. April's friends became critical when she turned Zoe down. Several people told April she was wrong. That may very well have planted the seed that got her thinking. Especially the woman who betrayed her just before the final confrontation.

There are far too many references in both games to allow anyone to think April's role has ended. That cliffhanger scene was far too unoriginal to be her demise. Many characters spoke of things yet to be done by April that have not taken place, (Banda, Guardian, Lady A, Kin) and so on. Kian and the Lady having the same last name, the kin calling April daughter, Zoe and Faith being sisters, Crow being with Lady A strongly suggest she is April. Far too many messages to simply write off.

What specifically did Zoe do? I don't think it was anything related to the final scene. Likely it was simply showing up in Arcadia and engaging April. What would be neat is April shifting directly to Charlie's bar in Stark landing on the sofa.

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner] #265802
01/20/08 06:57 PM
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Ragnar Tornquist may know the complete story, but at this point in time, I'm not sure anyone else does. He doesn't seem to know much about the plans for the game coming out in chapter form. It sounds like that is out of his hands and he might settle for releasing it in story format if the game doesn't work out. Maybe his storyline is too complicated for a game, especially one in short episodes. I do hope that the game does get made since so many have such a strong interest in it, but for myself I don't care all that much. They lost me when they added all those action shenanigans to the game.


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Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: sierramindy] #265832
01/20/08 08:11 PM
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Why care so much for the action parts, sierramindy? Most of them can be avoided, there are about 2 of them that are a must, and those are really easy.
I don't think you need to give up on a game simply because it has an element you don't relate to much. Believe me, I didn't relate to the combat sequences either. The story + characters were simply too good, however, for me to give up on it smile.

oldmariner:
Click to reveal..
I thought about that - in Dreamfall, Crow decided to be Zoe's sidekick, and to leave April after she's been selfish to Zoe. If I'm not mistaken, the game ends when Crow is "officialy" Zoe's sidekick. Could that bring up the possiblity that, somehow, Zoe is lady Alvane, and not April? (I'm relaying on the fact that we see crow + old lady at the end of TLJ 1).
About Zoe affecting April's "spirit"... well, it could be, but I have to say it's really vauge if that's the case. April has shown hardly any sign of remorse or regret, not until the last second.
It could be that April regained faith in some form, right before she got stabbed, seeing the Azadi apostle, Alvane, was trying to defend her. Then she was saved. But saying that Zoe affected her - it's just hard to buy it since you see that April keeps thinking the same things, acting the same way, until the minute she dies. Even in her last conversation with Alvane (the apostle), she's still the cynical April.
It's really intruiging. I hope there's a good, logical, profound explenation for Zoe just standing there on the horizon, and somehow affecting April. I really do hope we're not the only ones who'r doing the thinking *cough*ragnartornquist*cough*.



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01/20/08 08:52 PM
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Graduate Boomer

Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15,022
Northeast NJ
This subject of the game Dreamfall has came up many times
since its release....

I for one was very disappointed with the game....
I was expecting something else entirely...

This game as beautiful as it was....Has no bearing on what we all expected..

My Opinion...


Luv Dar


GameBoomers
"Games Are More Enticing Because Of Our "MaG"nificent Efficient Radiant Site"
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Darleen03] #265928
01/20/08 11:25 PM
01/20/08 11:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,525
oldmariner Offline
Reviewer
oldmariner  Offline
Reviewer
Addicted Boomer

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,525
I agree with you Darleen I was very disappointed in this game for many reasons. It is not on my top ten list or if it is, then barely. I am replaying the games I like best and with every play Dreamfall drops a notch.

The obverse is true with T.L.J-1 For me everything else gets measured against it and so far nothing quite gets there.

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