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Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Darleen03] #357916
07/10/08 12:32 AM
07/10/08 12:32 AM
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Singapore
Benedict Offline
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Sometime ago there was a funny comment on how to finish Myst instantly, because the way to the final puzzle that leads to the final inventory item is there from the start of the game. If you know the combination to the puzzle which would normally take hours of exploration to find, you can finish the game by within a few minutes.

I know doing these steps would be meaningless because the gamer kills the game this way, but there could be some philosophy behind a deliberate design decision not to have puzzles that activate unknown to the gamer in a room that he has already thoroughly explored. In other games, the final door will never activate until you have "met the prerequisites".

As far as I could recall, a design "flaw" that involves inventory items appearing in a room that you have already visited are already in early Sierra games like Laura Bow 2. Hence it is not a "flaw" that only new games have.

Years ago there was a computer gaming magzine that has a hall of fame section where they enter the best games like Myst. We can do that for our old time favourites, then take them out of the competition, lest every new generation of game is always compared to an unbeatable game like Myst and never be recognised. Otherwise, when will we expect to see Dracula Origin in a top ten list?

As to how to know the release dates, we can provide the list of games for voting that are released within a time frame. That means we need help from a vendor/ online shop who can supply the data. Besides, the box or the manual should have a part that gives the copyright and the year of release.


Last edited by Benedict; 07/10/08 03:01 AM.
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Benedict] #357952
07/10/08 05:11 AM
07/10/08 05:11 AM
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usa
HeavenlyJoy Offline
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I Agree with you, I think that is why I liked the Lost Crown so much, its been awhile since I have played something that brought together the GAME play so well with the Puzzles and time line, it was a labor of love, think the last game like this was Darkfall, I also liked the Light house once I got into it.. a bit...
I love Games that actually have you thinking not just seeing what inventory item can go with what,
I love REALLY GOOD PUZZLES and GOOD PLOTS!!
it was refreshing to play The Crown... to me it had all in your list expect for maybe the voices, but that is something I dont care as much about anyway smile
GOOD Points you have made, ..

by the way, I was thinking recently of trying to get a virtual pc or someway to play some of the older games I missed, I played back when they had text games and alot of Sierra, and Myst just came out, and then in the 90s went away for a while coming back again in the last 4 or so years, so I have missed alot of the older ones...

Marcia

Last edited by HeavenlyJoy; 07/10/08 05:13 AM.
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: HeavenlyJoy] #357988
07/10/08 07:45 AM
07/10/08 07:45 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,545
Piney Woods of East Texas
joanieS Offline
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These responses are all quite interesting and describe the different tastes in gamers that embrace all adventure games. But, hey! Flotsam devised HIS list a long time ago for what HE thought was an interesting premise (and, so do I). So, if others want a list of just new games or whatever then create your own lists from whatever perspective you want. GameBoomers would welcome the variety. As for not being able to play old games, I bought a used pentium loaded with Windows 98 earlier this year and am enjoying all those old games. If you really really want to be able to play old adventure games you can do the same thing.


"A friend is someone who knows the song in your heart and can sing it back to you when you have forgotten the words." ...unknown
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: HeavenlyJoy] #357999
07/10/08 08:12 AM
07/10/08 08:12 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 557
Dublin, Ireland
metzomagic Offline
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Benedict, hi again,

Quote:
As far as I could recall, a design "flaw" that involves inventory items appearing in a room that you have already visited are already in early Sierra games like Laura Bow 2. Hence it is not a "flaw" that only new games have.


Sorry, but to me the whole puzzle design in Runaway is fundamentally flawed, and completely turned me off. I should not have to talk to someone (to 'know' that I need it) before I'm allowed to pick up an object that is in plain sight duh That's just illogical, and puzzles are supposed to be about using logic to solve them.

So no matter how good the modern games are graphically, I think that most of them are sorely lacking in the puzzle department. People that haven't been playing adventure games since they were invented may not realise that, because they have nothing to compare against but the recent crop of games, where most of them suffer from poor/illogical or unimaginative puzzle design.

Regards,
MetzO'Magic



Now playing:
The Witcher

Running old games in XP/Vista? Then visit Steve's XP Corner!
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: metzomagic] #358016
07/10/08 09:23 AM
07/10/08 09:23 AM
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 1,053
Singapore
Benedict Offline
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Well, Dracula Origin had pretty nice logic puzzles. This game should meet at least part of your expectations for puzzle design, shouldn't it?

Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Benedict] #358087
07/10/08 11:26 AM
07/10/08 11:26 AM
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Gandalf Offline
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How well all the older games have held their support is a surprise to me. The graphics are so much better these days that it is hard for some of the older games to compete with the newer better looking games.

Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Gandalf] #358100
07/10/08 11:50 AM
07/10/08 11:50 AM
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southeast USA
Jenny100 Offline
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Beauty is more than skin deep.

Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Jenny100] #358246
07/10/08 04:08 PM
07/10/08 04:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 68
Pennsylvania
Andromus Offline
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I guess I'm surprised that many people seem surprised there aren't more newer games on the list, considering the overwhelming amount of mediocre releases of recent years. In fact, there are too many newer games of so-so quality on the list for my taste. But then I'm one of those whose favorite adventure games tend to be 10-15 years old.

Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: metzomagic] #358274
07/10/08 04:42 PM
07/10/08 04:42 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,451
Cambridge, England
Kickaha Offline
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Originally Posted By: metzomagic
So no matter how good the modern games are graphically, I think that most of them are sorely lacking in the puzzle department. People that haven't been playing adventure games since they were invented may not realise that, because they have nothing to compare against but the recent crop of games, where most of them suffer from poor/illogical or unimaginative puzzle design.


I agree about modern games tending to lack in the puzzle department, though I might extend that to be puzzles and how they integrate with the story. One or two comments.

Firstly perhaps we tend to remember the best games from the past. I'm sure there were really bad games as well, now mercifully all but forgotten. Also some of the past games regarded as classics do have these flaws.

Secondly I think most people if they play enough recent games will gain a feeling of when a game has been well-written and when it hasn't been, when the puzzles are fair and when they're not.


Used to answer to "Peter Smith", now answers to "Peter Rootham-Smith"
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Andromus] #358275
07/10/08 04:42 PM
07/10/08 04:42 PM
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 1,053
Singapore
Benedict Offline
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First, new games ARE getting better. Secondly, many of the new adventure games like Dracula Origin, Tunguska, Jack Keane and Belief and Betrayal are actually not that different in concept and in spirit from the classic adventure games of the past. In fact, the new developers have taken consideration of feedback and eliminated annoying sudden death sequences, timed sequences, mazes and sliders and dead ends. Do you remember Space Quest and King's Quest games? Your game can end suddenly with no warning at any time. Now, was that fun?

If we keep comparing them to the best of the best games of the past and keep saying the same thing that new games are not up to standard then I am afraid it might stay this way. I don't see action, RTS and RPG gamers having this kind of comparison like, "oh, Command and Conquer Gold and Dune 2 are the best games ever". Instead , their developers just keep churning out new games, and trying to make them bigger and better and the gamers just lap it up. Why can't the Adventure gamers cut the new games some slack and give the developers some encouragement and more recognition?

For people who have been saying that puzzles have become less well-designed and less challenging, perhaps they could give some CONCRETE ideas like "How to make better puzzles" on this forum, so that visiting developers can benefit from these constructive suggestions.

Last edited by Benedict; 07/10/08 04:51 PM.
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Benedict] #358277
07/10/08 04:46 PM
07/10/08 04:46 PM
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Northeast NJ
Darleen03 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Benedict
If we keep comparing them to the best of the best games of the past and keep saying the same thing that new games are not up to standard then I am afraid it might stay this way. Why can't the Adventure gamers cut the new games some slack and give the developers some encouragement and more recognition?


I agree ...Benedict... thumbsup

That is what I have been saying all along...


Luv Dar


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Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Benedict] #358346
07/10/08 06:51 PM
07/10/08 06:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
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Pennsylvania
Andromus Offline
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Originally Posted By: Benedict
First, new games ARE getting better. Secondly, many of the new adventure games like Dracula Origin, Tunguska, Jack Keane and Belief and Betrayal are actually not that different in concept and in spirit from the classic adventure games of the past.


In concept, yes, in spirit, sometimes. In actual gameplay, not even close.


Quote:

If we keep comparing them to the best of the best games of the past and keep saying the same thing that new games are not up to standard then I am afraid it might stay this way.


And I say if we applaud average games, we'll continue to get average games. And I'm certainly not saying every new game has to be a Riven or Monkey Island or whatever. But I expect more than this almost unbroken string of consistently mediocre games.

Quote:

I don't see action, RTS and RPG gamers having this kind of comparison like, "oh, Command and Conquer Gold and Dune 2 are the best games ever". Instead , their developers just keep churning out new games, and trying to make them bigger and better and the gamers just lap it up.


Action gamers as a whole can afford to be more lenient -- they're getting a lot more games than adventure gamers are, and as a result have more opportunities to come across a good new game than adventure gamers do. They can weed through the average and bad action games and pick out the few gems that come along every year, if they want. Adventure gamers don't have that luxury.

Quote:

For people who have been saying that puzzles have become less well-designed and less challenging, perhaps they could give some CONCRETE ideas like "How to make better puzzles" on this forum, so that visiting developers can benefit from these constructive suggestions.


What the developers need to know already exists in what the classics got right. Let them study what successful companies like LucasArts or Cyan did right, and expand upon that with today's programming capabilities and their own unique creativity.

Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Andromus] #358484
07/11/08 12:59 AM
07/11/08 12:59 AM
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Posts: 13,453
Texas
nickie Offline
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I sure agree with you Peter. I think we do sometimes think of old games with this dream like haze around them of superiority, like an old romance where we remember all the best parts and have forgotten the bad. Nothing wrong with that - it's human nature. But I think some dissatisfaction with newer games may be at least partially a function of zeitgeist rather than the games all being of lesser quality. There were plenty of average games back then, and there's plenty now. There were gems then, and there are now.
I would never put down anyone's choices for the twisty list, regardless if my personal analysis told me the game was in my opinion dreadful. It's not about me. It's about those intangibles perhaps that sing to the players and makes them happy -and if a large number of people pick that same game- isn't that the most important quality, after all?


"How could drops of water know themselves to be a river? Yet the river flows on."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: nickie] #358769
07/11/08 04:30 PM
07/11/08 04:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,451
Cambridge, England
Kickaha Offline
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"Intangibles" is a good word Nickie. Sometimes my liking or disliking a game is something unconscious, I can try rationalising it by talking about story or puzzles or graphics but that is only rationalisation.

The wonder of the first few games one plays, the amazement at the technical magic, is sadly lost forever after one's played a hundred. (Edit sometimes a new game can amaze but this is rare.)

Last edited by Peter Smith; 07/11/08 04:33 PM. Reason: Added get out comment

Used to answer to "Peter Smith", now answers to "Peter Rootham-Smith"
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Kickaha] #359470
07/12/08 10:23 PM
07/12/08 10:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 29,487
United Kingdom
Mad Offline
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Hi Nickie and Peter smile

I agree with a lot of what you are both saying but I replay my old games (and I have LOTS with the oldest from around 1989/90) on a regular basis and I just wanted to say that I don't view any of them through a dream like haze wink

I'm fully aware of their shortcomings - as I am the shortcomings of modern games - and I have played stinkers both old and new lol

To me a good game is a good game regardless of age thumbsup

Cheers.

Mad happydance



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