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Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: Singer] #503033
05/22/09 05:44 AM
05/22/09 05:44 AM
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Warsaw, Poland
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Originally Posted By: Singer
Text adventures of old had it all over today's graphic adventures in terms of player interaction.


Have you played a certain text adventure of new called The Lost Pig? I found the amount of details and the level of interactivity in that game truly amazing and (what is equally important) it's truly done in a way that adds to the gameplay instead of confusing the player about what to do next.

The very old text adventures often bore me to be honest. They just feel too... stiff. I usually prefer new ones over them. Zorks are an exception. Possibly because I really like the world they are set in.

Last edited by Ascovel; 05/22/09 06:30 AM.

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Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: Ascovel] #503075
05/22/09 09:05 AM
05/22/09 09:05 AM
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Toronto
Singer Offline
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I haven't played a text adventure in years, though I've heard there are some good ones. I wasn't trying to promote IF, though, but rather point out that the genre actually took a step backwards from where it once was in terms of interactivity, and that we still haven't really recovered. I think setting sights on restoring that degree of personal involvement would make adventures far richer and more rewarding than they are now, without necessarily becoming too easy.


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Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: Singer] #503540
05/23/09 09:42 AM
05/23/09 09:42 AM
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Stony Brook, New York, USA
Becky Offline OP
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In general, then, adventure games should be more responsive to the gamer than they are now? And not necessarily by adding extra nonessential hotspots?

Sorry if I seem clueless as to how this might be implemented. Well, relatively clueless. grin I'm remembering the "touch everything to hear how it sounds" feature in Myst IV: Revelation. It made the world more responsive, but it seemed, um, more of a gimmick than anything else.

Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: Becky] #503595
05/23/09 12:36 PM
05/23/09 12:36 PM
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Toronto
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Your asking more questions isn't making my escape any easier, Becky. laugh

In general, yes! Thing is, though, I'm trying to avoid being specific, because I don't think there has to be only one way to accomplish it, or that each way would suit each game.

More non-essential hotspots could be a great start. If you do something rewarding with them. If they feel like they were added just to give us something fun to try. But they could also be hindrances, if clicking on them is dull and disappointing and their existence is really just to obscure the items that are really relevant. Then they're only there as a frustation. So more is not necessarily better; instead I'd say it's more important to make better use of the ones available.

Gimmicks are only gimmicks if they aren't implemented properly. And even if they aren't, you still remember them. wink Plus, if no one tries them, no one will ever improve on them.

While neither of these things appeal to me, collectibles and achievements are also huge in other games (mainly other genres). Some adventures have begun using them (Emerald City Confidential, Strong Bad come to mind), so that's another avenue being explored, if only lightly.

Again, I don't mean to make is sound like no adventures do these things, or that all of them don't do it to some extent. I'd just like to see distribution a little more refined, and player reward built more into the actual gameplay than merely the big pats on the head for persevering through all the challenges.


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Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: Singer] #503638
05/23/09 02:51 PM
05/23/09 02:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
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Stony Brook, New York, USA
Becky Offline OP
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Thanks Singer -- I liked the experiments with collectibles in Emerald City confidential and Strong Bad. I would like to see more of that in adventures.

I'll stop asking questions now. lol You always have interesting things to say, IMHO. thumbsup

Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: chrissie] #503678
05/23/09 05:33 PM
05/23/09 05:33 PM
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Twenty minutes? I never spend so little time on any game. If I have the day off from work I'll play a hog until I've finished it, then go onto the next one. As I said once before, I don't play casual games casually.



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Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: GuybrushThreepwood] #503853
05/24/09 09:08 AM
05/24/09 09:08 AM
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Indiana
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One thing that has caused me to play more casual or adventure lite games is the time factor. Although I love my adventure games and I love the ones with lots of any kind of puzzles, I think time is a factor for me. I do love the analogy of the book. But to take it a step further, I enjoy books too with shorter chapters that I can stop at and feel like I have a stopping point. With casual games or adventure lite, I can stop more easily, or feel I can accomplish something with a small increment of time. If I don't have alot of time, I know it is useless to play certain adventure games, because I will not have time to really think this through and accomplish anything because I don't have a large amount of time to set aside. With the casual type, I can solve a level in 20-30 minutes or less and feel like I ended a chapter in a book. I can go back and pick up the story quickly and progress quickly. But like many complain, the game ends far too quickly especially if you are used to adventure type games.

That being said, I still love the challenge and exploration in adventure games. The feeling I am visiting a place I could never see otherwise. The feeling of working on something for hours or even days or more and I worked it out and solved it. There is a definately a difference in casual and adventure and it takes some getting used to when coming from adventure and trying casual or vice versa. I see people complain that this casual game is too short, or this adventure is way to long just running around looking for stuff. I think it depends on which you started on---casual or adventure and whether you love more puzzle driven or story driven.

I think for me, because I now enjoy both, it depends on time and stress level. Some games are more calming and some are challenging, and I play as needed lol

Koalanut


So many games, so little time....
Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: Koalanut] #523694
07/16/09 05:41 AM
07/16/09 05:41 AM
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Stony Brook, New York, USA
Becky Offline OP
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I've been turning this over in my mind since we had the discussion, and have consulted a couple of GB's casual game experts and I'm curious as to what people think of the following:

1. Hidden Object gameplay is so associated with casual games, that if a game contains it, the game is automatically casual -- even if a game exists that, if you eliminated the HO challenges, you'd essentially have an adventure game -- cough cough, Return to Ravenhearst. It's possible in the future for a game to have Hiddden Object gameplay that's such a minor part of the game that the game isn't casual -- but at the moment, Hidden Object screens are in the game, it's going to be regarded as a casual game.

2. Casual games rarely have elaborate, large graphical environments (although this trend may be changing too, especially with the new IHOGS (Interactive Hidden Object Games). If you can walk around in a location, see what's behind you and to the side of you, click on hotspots that aren't necessary for the gameplay, you probably aren't playing a casual game. If, after you leave a location, you can walk around it in your head, you've probably played an adventure game.

3. Casual games are structured to be played in short bursts, so you won't find a lot of interwoven complexities. The story, for instance, will come in brief chunks, and often it's separated from the gameplay, instead of interwoven throughout it. Also, you won't find puzzles that require multiple steps performed in disparate locations. You also won't find long, elaborate dialog trees. Adventures seek to immerse the gamer intensely for long stretches of time -- casual games can do that too, but that isn't necessarily their aim.

4. A casual game is different than an episodic game, which will have the characteristics of (for instance) an adventure game, but presented in chapters that finish with a story arc that is part of a whole. One way to think of it may be that an adventure game is like a novel, an episodic "season" is like the chapters in a novel, and a casual game is like a short story.

5. Casual games aim to give "rewards" frequently. They don't want the gamer baffled or stuck, particularly not at first. Adventure games want gamers to slow down, take their time, see how everything relates to the story or the game environment -- even become frustrated at times.


Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: Becky] #523756
07/16/09 09:15 AM
07/16/09 09:15 AM
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Rockford, Illinois
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My thinking is along the lines that casual games are slowly getting more adventuresome and the line between the two is getting fuzzier. One example is a Match-3 game like Cindy's Travels: Flooded Kingdom that actually told a story and was quite charming, I thought, and I dislike regular Match-3 games. Everybody already knows that IHOGs are taking over the regular HOGs. I think maybe Mortimer Becket started the trend and MCF: Return to Ravenhearst gave it a big boost!
I don't quite know how to say this, but it seems to me the big difference between casual and adventure is the format, like the basic ground rules. Casual has a formal structure that is always the same, while adventure is more open and character driven. I know what the difference is for me, but everyone else has to decide for themselves. Of course!


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Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: sierramindy] #523817
07/16/09 11:38 AM
07/16/09 11:38 AM
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San Francisco area, Calif.
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While my game library is small and my experience limited, my sense is that HerInteractive has been going this route for at least a couple of years... and if I'm understanding the description of 'Casual' correctly, it seems like the Nancy Drew series began morphing from an AG with puzzles to a puzzle game wrapped with a thin veneer of adventure... sort of 'leading the charge' into a new era of AG'ing. mad

The first words that came to mind were: "Dumbing down". Reminds me of TV: 'Reality' programming has been --more & more-- insinuating itself into TV dramas, sitcoms, etc.

Casual puzzles are fun and adventure games are fun, but one shouldn't try to be the other. Having a small amount of one in the other is fine, however.

Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: Carrie] #523848
07/16/09 12:28 PM
07/16/09 12:28 PM
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Wow, Becky! I missed this topic the first time around, but you have certainly opened up an intriguing dialog. I have enjoyed reading the posts in answer to your query. I love the analogies between novel and short story, crossword puzzles, etc.

In reading your most recent post, I would agree with all the conclusions you have reached.

As someone who grew up enjoying puzzles...crossword puzzles, jigsaw puzzles, etc...my initial step into computer adventure games was after running out of pure puzzle games (Pandora's Box, Contraptions, for example). I stepped into The Riddle of the Sphinx...and found an entirely new challenge...wrapped in an "out of this world" experience. In essence, it added a new dimension to the puzzle experience.

My success with this new type of puzzle format, was limited. Unlike a crossword puzzle, where one could utilize reference materials to find a solution, the adventure had no such reference book to assist. Frustration, as Singer pointed out, did set in. The discovery of Gameboomers reference library of walkthroughs allowed me to not have to abandon adventure games...and go back to my 2-dimensional puzzle world.

I did seek out games that I might find easier...Nancy Drew ("For girls 10 and up") and found more immediate gratification and less frustration..due to the hint system (phone a friend)...and thus the ability to complete these games without a walkthrough

I have now played a number of adventure games and since a couple of years ago have now added casual games, despite my ever increasing "to be played" pile of adventure games. The casual games (mostly HOGs) drew me in because of puzzles, so I think your initial premise that puzzle lovers would be more readily drawn to this genre is correct. I think time...or lack thereof...is the biggest reason in my case.

One has to be committed to play an adventure game. You are contracting to be engaged...to step into this new dimension...and explore, interact, interpret, engage in dialogues, to solve intricate puzzles in many cases...in order to come out on the other side with the story resolved.

No such commitment is needed in a casual game. With rare exceptions (Ravenhearst being one), casual games don't offer that added dimension. They very much feel two dimensional and flat. They do offer, however, appeal to puzzle lovers and do provide an instant puzzle "fix" when needed. Once one had tasted a good adventure game, however, the overall experience is not as satisfying.

So I would also add the level of commitment and dimensionality in the comparison between the two genres. Despite the occasional dalliance by some developers to merge elements of the two, I agree with Carrie because one simply cannot be the other.

Re: Adventure Games, Casual Games -- Some Thoughts [Re: JKEerie] #525980
07/21/09 01:14 AM
07/21/09 01:14 AM
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Quote:
would puzzle-focused adventure gamers find the transition to casual games easier than adventure gamers who are particularly fond of exploration and significant character interaction?


I don't think it's a question of it being easier as much as being as enjoyable. I have recently (in the last year) become a fan of the casual adventure (I love Ravenhearst) and to me the distinction is still clear between the two and one does not replace the other by any stretch of the imagination.

Despite similar elements they are still two distinct types of formats for gaming. They just both happen to have puzzles in them, sometimes the same puzzles. Casual adventure games focus on the hidden object aspect while standard adventures focus on story and character and environment.

So in essence the transition I don't think is focused on the puzzle themselves, but the context and gameplay in which those puzzles are presented.

A puzzle is a puzzle no matter what. A sliding block puzzle is a sliding block puzzle in an HO game or a standard adventure.

An adventure game isn't an HO game and an HO game isn't an adventure because the core gameplay is vastly different between the two.

I don't think one is in any danger of replacing the other anytime soon.


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