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Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! #301565
03/28/08 12:59 PM
03/28/08 12:59 PM
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seagul Offline OP
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Since english is not my native tongue, I may have missed some clues in the lost crown.
I hope someone can tell me if the following thoughts are right:
Click to reveal..
Nigel never left the Hadden-Building. He became (thanks to Mr. Haddens interference) part of an experiment, in which he is transported to an dreamlike land. Here it is his job to redeem some of the ghost that live in Saxton.
He works since 1978 for Hadden Industries (see Prologue), Lucy works since 2008 – they never met in real live as to young people to solve the riddles of Saxton!

What I don’ t comprehend is (among a million other things): why is Mr. Gruel so obsessed by Jemima, the Paperdoll?
Click to reveal..
I understood that his wife was named Jemima. What happened to her?
I’m sure he follows Nigel and Lucy because he knows they are “real” people. He seems to be possesed or bewitched by Frederick Ager, who created the nigthmare room by using the blood of poor animals.
But Jemima…?

Last edited by seagul; 03/28/08 01:00 PM.
Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: seagul] #301603
03/28/08 02:29 PM
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seagul, very interesting observactions.

For your first point, I'm still trying to figure that all out in my head. I think I need to replay the game to reabsorb everything again.

I replayed the prologue and

Click to reveal..
You're right, Nigel was recruited in 1978. Just how old is he anyway? And Hadden does say something to the effect that Nigel is going "nowhere"... I have not played Dark Fall (yet) but I do know that Nigel is a university student in it? Another thing is that Hadden tells Lucy to bring back Nigel. From what? From an experiment? Seance?


As for Jemima,

Click to reveal..
I assume that Gruel was traumatised after Jemima's death and therefore started thinking/believing that the doll was his wife? Maybe he got into the whole Ager thing to try and resurrect Jemima?


And also...

Click to reveal..
How many of the residents were real and how many were ghosts? Were the Katherine & Robert Karswell and Nancy & Timmy the only ghosts that appeared real to Nigel? Or were there more?


So many questions, but questions in a good way. I really need to replay this and pay more attention! I'd love to hear other people's thoughts as well!

Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: misa] #301630
03/28/08 03:29 PM
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seagul Offline OP
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I feel reliefed that even native english speakers are left with a number of unanswered questions after finishing the game. The story has so many subplots and bypaths- the fun is not over after playing it! bravo
Interesting thoughts, misa.
I, too, wondered about Mr. Hadden
Click to reveal..
saying that Lucy has to pull back Nigel, when the time is right - what does he mean?

Your thoughts about Jemima:
Click to reveal..
they sound possible, but are there some hints in the game? I found nothing specific.

I belief, the people Nigel meets in Saxton
Click to reveal..
are all ghost - except Lucy. But than -what about Alex, Lucys brother? Saxton lies in the sixties, Lucy and Alex should not live there, but in a modern Saxton. Are there only parts of Saxton involved in the experiment?

I never understood what happend to
Click to reveal..
the little girl in the museum. Couldn't Nigel redeem her, because her beeing a ghost was not connected to the Ager-brothers?





Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: seagul] #301638
03/28/08 03:45 PM
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I really do hope that Jonathan Boakes considers writing a novel based on his screenplay for the game. I'd definitely buy it!

Hadden:

Click to reveal..
Yes, I am not quite sure what Hadden means about pulling Nigel back and whether it's from an experiment or a seance or what!


Jemima:

Click to reveal..
I didn't see anything in the game about my theory but just an assumption based on knowing that sometimes grief can cause people's realities to shatter and shift. Also the concept of going the route of evil (creating the nightmare room) to resurrect a loved one is a common theme in fiction so... that's what I assumed he was doing. But only Jonathan knows for sure!


People of Saxton:

Click to reveal..
I got that impression as well that everyone was a ghost except Lucy and Alex. Though Alex could have been just a part of the "experiment" if Nigel was in an experiment. Did you notice that Alex's handheld device was from the Hadden corporation? Or maybe just some were real ghosts and some were part of the experiment. Like the little boy with the camera. The camera he was using was a digital camera.


As for the girl in the museum:

Click to reveal..
I don't think she needed to be saved. She had stated that she was there of her own free will and wasn't trapped and that she went to the museum often to play. Maybe she didn't know she was dead and still thought she was playing there because I do remember Nigel finding the newspaper article about her death.


Still so many questions. smile

Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: Jenny100] #301662
03/28/08 04:35 PM
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I couldn't understand what to do with
Click to reveal..
With the pig..I keep running back & forth to feed him pizza & sandwiches..Only to find out later he was a meal & nothing more rotfl

That part made me cry also cry


Luv Dar


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Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: Darleen03] #301666
03/28/08 04:53 PM
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seagul Offline OP
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I wonder if every
Click to reveal..
MayDayPig has the same name: Cairan.
I cried, too. cry
How can someone give an animal a name and than kill it??

I was so reliefed when
Click to reveal..
Mr. Tibbs was found alive. catrub

Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: seagul] #301810
03/29/08 05:29 AM
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Well, knock me down with a feather eek i have to admit that I missed the subplot.


Has any one seen any little gray cells around as I think I've lost some? Reward for finder.
Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: old lady] #301855
03/29/08 07:44 AM
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Just thought of something else!

At the end:

Click to reveal..
Didn't Hadden have the Saxon warrior helmet on his desk? Is that another indication that this was partially or all an engineered experiment?

Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: misa] #301926
03/29/08 10:27 AM
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seagul Offline OP
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scared
Misa, I did miss this! It gives the story a new sense! It could explain why Nigel is from the start focused on finding the crown.
Click to reveal..
The Ager brothers are perverted by the power the crown gave to them. It started with Thomas, who made a pact with his brothers to bring harm to anybody who tries to uncover the crown. The idea of saving the land and the poeple by saving the crown is perverted by the Ager brothers: they kill innocent people to save the crown. What is if someone has to replace the Ager brothers and do what the real keepers of the crown are supposed to do? Mr Hadden could be the one - and Nigel, who infiltrated his experiment, could be his tool.

Hmm, I should restart the game to look out for some hints in this direction.

Btw: sorry for my bad english, I hope everybody can understand me. oops

Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: seagul] #301939
03/29/08 10:47 AM
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seagul, I think you're on to something! I think we both need to replay to fully explore the entire story again. smile

(and your English is excellent!)

Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: misa] #301986
03/29/08 12:39 PM
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What manner of place is Saxton?
Click to reveal..
I think a combination of ghost-related phenomena are involved, including time slips and possibly stone tape theory for some of the manifestations. Nigel's visit to Katherine and Robert Karswell at the Ager house clearly seems to be part of a time slip. Producing conditions that would cause a time slip (or other ghost-related manifestations) would probably be what Haddon Industries was investigating.

For those who don't know what time slips are, check the story about Annie Moberly and Dr. Eleanor Frances Jourdain, found here
http://members.aol.com/timeslip8888/versailles.html

Another timeslip is recounted here
http://www.assap.org/newsite/articles/Time%20slip.html

Another interesting website which describes various types of ghost-related phenomena is here
http://www.ghostclub.org.uk/spring2007.htm



Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: Jenny100] #301994
03/29/08 12:55 PM
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Jenny, thanks for the information and what you've proposed does makes sense.

Click to reveal..
Now would the timeslips in certain general areas in the game be indicated by that "photo tear"? I remember it appearing at Northfield which is close to the Karswell home and it was somewhere else -- was it the other church?

Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: misa] #302039
03/29/08 02:25 PM
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Click to reveal..
I noticed one tear at the tree (yew tree?) at Northfield church and the other at Ulcombe Church. Interesting how both of them were near churches. I'm not sure what the tears indicated.

The most obvious time slip was the one at the Ager house, and that didn't have any tears that were very near to it. Instead the tears seemed close to where two of the Ager brothers (Thomas and Nathaniel) had the most power. Maybe it was because of the proximity of evil to what were supposed to be holy places. Otherwise I'd have expected a tear at the Net House and maybe also at Harbor Cottage (where there were similar manifestations of evil black vapor).

Anyway, the time slip at the Ager house didn't seem to have any obvious evil associated with it. Not at the time Nigel visited anyway.

Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: misa] #302053
03/29/08 02:50 PM
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seagul Offline OP
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Thanks, Jenny, very interesting pages. thanks

I remember two
Click to reveal..
photo tears: at the graveyard by Northfield church an at the Ulcombe church, where Mr. Russett repairs the roof.

(edit: Oh, Jenny 100 just answerd the question!)

But as I understand the Report submitted by Mr. Hare, which Nigel carrys with him
Click to reveal..
the "April Showers" (to which Mr. Hare refers) flooded the Saxton graveyard and opend a chasm to another world. I suppose the "Shadow time" is nine o'clock: the time, the clock at the BEAR is stuck.

I never know if I see to much in every hint. blush
I'm replaying the game and realised,
Click to reveal..
that some people live in the present (the landlady, Alex "Spitmoor", Lucy), some in the past. I must pay attention if the present people know the past people.
I'm not sure, to which group Prof. Hardacre belongs.

Replaying the game reveals many interesting details - it is even more fun than the first time! yay
This is a recommendation to everybody who loved playing it the first time! wave

@ Misa: Thanks for your nice words wave, I' flattered.

Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: seagul] #302064
03/29/08 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: seagul
But as I understand the Report submitted by Mr. Hare, which Nigel carrys with him
Click to reveal..
the "April Showers" (to which Mr. Hare refers) flooded the Saxton graveyard and opened a chasm to another world. I suppose the "Shadow time" is nine o'clock: the time, the clock at the BEAR is stuck.

I'm afraid I didn't understand that entry at all.
Click to reveal..
I took it to mean the flooding was what caused the rotting bodies to be washed up on the beaches and poison the waters. At the beginning of the game, I wondered if the crown had already been stolen, which in turn had caused the disastrous flooding in the first place. The flooding did not seem like a natural event.

I didn't connect it to the clock at the Bear being stuck. I wondered if the Bear, or parts of it, were being seen and/or heard "stone tape style" -- as a replay of a certain moment in the past. Remember how one time Nigel visited the Bear and heard many peoples' voices in the room, but when he entered the room there was no one there.


Quote:
I'm replaying the game and realised,
Click to reveal..
that some people live in the present (the landlady, Alex "Spitmoor", Lucy), some in the past. I must pay attention if the present people know the past people.

Click to reveal..
They seem to. At least they seem to know of them. If they aren't ghosts themselves, they at least seem to be used to living alongside ghosts.


Quote:
Click to reveal..
I'm not sure, to which group Prof. Hardacre belongs.

Click to reveal..
He actually seems to belong to both. Remember there was a Hardacre who warned Nigel at night, out on the Harbour Wall. But when Nigel asks him about it next day, Hardacre doesn't know what he's talking about. Could the Hardacre that Nigel met out on the Harbour Wall be a manifestation from the future? A ghost that came into being after Hardacre was killed? Who killed Hardacre anyway? Was it Gruel or one of the Agers by way of a time slip?

Time seems confused in this game. For example, the ages of the Ager brothers. William Ager died in the 1940's, yet Thomas Ager was rector of Northfield in 1799. And some other characters look younger than events in their pasts would indicate their ages to be. So does that mean those characters are ghosts or are parts of Saxton in a time slip?

What was the significance of Thomas Ager taking Nicholas Gurney's hands and (apparently) deleting the coats of arms from his memorial? That kept Gurney's spirit from moving on and created a puzzle for Nigel. But why would Thomas Ager have bothered? Wouldn't killing him and stealing his money be enough?

And then we can go back to what caused the "April Showers" that caused all those rotting bodies to pollute the waters. Was this the result of the Agers trying to empty out the town?

Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: Jenny100] #302096
03/29/08 04:41 PM
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Regarding the clock:

Click to reveal..
There was another clock stuck at 9 o'clock somewhere in the game. I can't remember where though. Was it Ulcombe church?


Regarding the Agers:

Click to reveal..
Perhaps they needed to keep the people they killed trapped and suffering? So by taking Gurney's hands and removing the coat of arms maybe that was a way of trapping their souls?


This discussion is fascinating! I love hearing other people's theories and hope that more people join in the discussion. smile

Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: misa] #302103
03/29/08 04:50 PM
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seagul Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Jenny100
I'm afraid I didn't understand that entry at all.


Sorry, I ment
Click to reveal..
the april showers caused the flooding which caused the bodies to be washed up which disturbed the deaths rest which opend the chasm (in some way). There are this two pictures of the restless souls, which Nigel took from Hadden Industries – two of the poor souls.
The flooding did not seem like a natural event to mee, too. Perhaps the experiment caused the april showers. Mr. Hadden (as written in Mr. Hares report), is interested in the chasm, in which the other world it revealed.
Question is, if Mr. Hadden caused the chasm or if he only studies it. (I want to belief he ist a good guy).


About the clock at the BEAR being stuck:
Click to reveal..
I am very fascinated from this clock. It seems, every time, Nigel enters the room, he is, as you say, in a replay of a certain moment of the past. So I beliefed, the time (9 o’clock) has some important meaning to the story – perhaps I went over the top. (But what else could “the chasm opened at shadow time” mean? – So many unanswered questions!


About Prof. Hardacre: very interesting observation! Prof. Hardacre is still a mystery to me!

About the timeline:
Click to reveal..
As I stated at the beginning, I found hints, that Nigel never left the Labor D of Hadden Industries. All he experiences is surveilled by Mr. Hadden on the monitors. So Nigel is IN the chasm, collecting data for Mr. Hadden. Time is different here, it is defined by the different soul who live/haunt in Saxton. It is not the timelin we know in our world, more the psychological time of the singel ghosts/souls.
For example, little Oliver, the child with the camera, has won the saxton snappers price since at least for years - how can that be in the real world? Little Nancy not even recognizes how much time she is waiting for her dad.


About Old Nick:
Click to reveal..
Thomas Ager writes it in his Dairy: “Gurney has seen and heard enough … I’ll take this burrowing hand of his, and bury them deep, under tombs of stone.” Taking his arms surely has something to do with honour.


I, too, love such discussions. I understand more of the story if I have to explain it to others. And it is enlightning to hear other opinions.

Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: seagul] #302308
03/30/08 07:36 AM
03/30/08 07:36 AM
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Click to reveal..
In my mind while playing I was thinking that it was all an experiment by the Hadden corporation and that you really weren't "there". I figured with all of his equipment he had, it was possible to transport an individual into a photograph and live in it's world. Hence the tears in some screens and the rust
in the lower left corner of the screen next to Nigels place when it was raining. Going back into those photos lets you go back into that time period and explore. One of the reasons that Nigel kept asking the barmaid what year it was. So if Hadden wanted the lost crown, what better way to send someone back to an earlier time when those with the most knowledge were still around? Obviously he couldn't go back much further because photographs didn't exist then. With enough photographs, you could build an entire town while letting your technology fill in the gaps.

Based on when the photos were taken, it could explain a lot of the different time periods. Do they still use steam trains in the UK?!?

Did you notice that some things didn't exist until Nigel was told about them? For example at the old shed. I looked at the rocks and they were clean. I turned and talked to Lucy and she mentioned blood on them. I turned and looked at the rocks again, but this time they were covered in blood. I asked Jonathan about it thinking it might be a bug and he said it was intentional. Hmmmm.....


Just my thoughts. Of course there is probably enough evidence to make this scenario unlikely as there are to make it likely! smile


Funny stuff 1:
Click to reveal..
LOL, I too fed the pig like crazy! It didn't even occur to me that it was the same pig at the festival until I went back and saw the crate with the baby pig in it and Cairn was gone! I was saddened by it, yet found it somewhat humorous that I had been fattening up the pig for the slaughter. To me it was little details like this that showed that Jonathan had put a lot of thinking into the game.


Funny stuff 2:
Click to reveal..
The other part that had me laughing was when he was looking through the scope at Lucy and saying, "I can see you...." It was so much like something a guy would say. Hardacre popping in and catching it made it all the more funny.


Jemima:
Click to reveal..

The Jemima thing was just weird. I wonder if Gruel ever really had a wife. In the one letter that is found, it was mentioned that Gruel wanted her to meet his wife but he had a strange look when he mentioned it. I think Gruel was just insane and considered the doll his wife. When Jemima was burning in the fireplace and Gruel was crying hysterically it became obvious that he was unusually attached to that doll.


Catnapper:
Click to reveal..

Am I one of the only ones that doesn't think Gruel was the catnapper? That whole thing seemed odd. Why was Jemima thrown into the fire? Unless there was some kind of strange force that the doll contained which made Gruel do those things. Perhaps the barmaid understood this and threw the doll in there?

Last edited by Ivinia; 03/30/08 07:36 AM.
Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: Ivinia] #302351
03/30/08 08:50 AM
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Ivinia, your first observation is interesting and absolutely plausible!

Click to reveal..
I wasn't paying enough attention to notice the rocks. I didn't go look at them until after talking to Lucy!


Catnapper

Click to reveal..
It is a strange turn of events. Who do you think the catnapper was if it wasn't Gruel? He was indeed the author of the poison pen letters though right?

Last edited by misa; 03/30/08 08:50 AM.
Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: Ivinia] #302356
03/30/08 09:01 AM
03/30/08 09:01 AM
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Wow--- I was hoping to see what theories others came up with, now I have even more questions!!! think

One thing that bothered me.......
Click to reveal..
Christina Molina became ill and eventually died because of drinking the polluted water that came from below the house. Well, her husband was there quite a while before she arrived and after she died. He would've had to have been drinking water from the same source. Why did he not end up like his wife?


Dawn devil

Last edited by dmtomchick; 03/30/08 09:03 AM.
Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: dmtomchick] #302392
03/30/08 09:56 AM
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@ Ivinia: what a wonderfull idea you had
Click to reveal..
about the fotographs as places where Nigel can “travel” due to the technology of Mr. Hadden. Sounds much better than my idea! It fits much better.


So you believe Mr. Hadden
Click to reveal..
is after the crown and opened the chasm by mistake? I don’ t want to think this bad about him. He is doing the research for a long time, since he knows so much about ghosthunting. He seems interested in the paranormal at large. It is obvious, that Mr. Hadden has technology that comes from the future, he talks about the past and the future, as if its all the same to him.
In 2008 Nigel would be more than 50 years old, considering that he was recruited in 1978, when he was (let’s say) 20 years old. Lucy has a student ID for 2007 till 2010. Somehow Mr. Hadden can controll/manipulate the time, not only via fotographs.


Jemima:
Click to reveal..
Hmmm… Sound interesting. We have to find more hints. There is the spell Frederick Ager created by building the nightmare room works on Mr. Gruel:”I shall build a place for the darkest desires and decorate its walls with blood …I must build a place … where the greedy will lose their soul.” His diarys are really unsane.
Is Mr. Gruel really the catnapper? He works for Frederick, that’s for sure. He observes Lucy and Nigel, the two persons in town that obviously are snooping around - a danger for the crown. Perhaps the spell is linked to the paperdoll, good idea, Ivinia.


@ dawn: good question. We have to find someone who can answer! lol

Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: seagul] #302404
03/30/08 10:09 AM
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Dawn:

Click to reveal..
Perhaps Edward spent most of his time outside of the home on business trips, working and The Bear? Maybe he didn't drink enough of the water at home to be poisoned by it?


I'm going to replay the game starting tomorrow and will have a notebook handy to jot down any clues and hints about everything that's been discussed.

Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: Ivinia] #302431
03/30/08 10:42 AM
03/30/08 10:42 AM
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Posts: 39,388
southeast USA
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Jenny100  Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 39,388
southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Ivinia
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In my mind while playing I was thinking that it was all an experiment by the Hadden corporation and that you really weren't "there". I figured with all of his equipment he had, it was possible to transport an individual into a photograph and live in it's world. Hence the tears in some screens and the rust in the lower left corner of the screen next to Nigels place when it was raining. Going back into those photos lets you go back into that time period and explore. One of the reasons that Nigel kept asking the barmaid what year it was. So if Hadden wanted the lost crown, what better way to send someone back to an earlier time when those with the most knowledge were still around? Obviously he couldn't go back much further because photographs didn't exist then. With enough photographs, you could build an entire town while letting your technology fill in the gaps.

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So near the end, where everything starts going bad after Nigel takes the crown... That's all some sort of virtual reality test to see what would happen if it were really taken?

How does the cut scene at the beginning of the game fit in? Where the Haddon employees were so angry at Nigel for breaking in and stealing the photos? Did that actually happen or was it only part of the scenario created for Nigel?


Quote:
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Did you notice that some things didn't exist until Nigel was told about them? For example at the old shed. I looked at the rocks and they were clean. I turned and talked to Lucy and she mentioned blood on them. I turned and looked at the rocks again, but this time they were covered in blood. I asked Jonathan about it thinking it might be a bug and he said it was intentional. Hmmmm.....

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I thought the blood that appeared was ghost blood -- residue from something that happened in the past. That the actual blood had been washed away long ago, but occasionally seemed to reappear as a ghostly manifestation.


Quote:

Catnapper:
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Am I one of the only ones that doesn't think Gruel was the catnapper? That whole thing seemed odd. Why was Jemima thrown into the fire? Unless there was some kind of strange force that the doll contained which made Gruel do those things. Perhaps the barmaid understood this and threw the doll in there?

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If Gruel wasn't the catnapper, who was? And where did Jemima come from? Did one of the Ager brothers create Jemima while he was alive? Was the spirit of one of the Agers inside the doll or was the doll simply some sort of "focus" for them?

There's one point of the game where you notice more color. The sky becomes blue and the interior of Nanny Noah's house has more color the second time you visit. What did that indicate?

Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: Jenny100] #302440
03/30/08 11:11 AM
03/30/08 11:11 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,372
PA, USA
M
misa Offline
Addicted Boomer
misa  Offline
Addicted Boomer
M

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,372
PA, USA
Jenny:

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About the colour. I had just assumed there was more colour (the blue sky) because it was May Day and marked the end of winter, beginning of spring/summer, renewal, rebirth, etc. I did not notice the colour shift in Nanny Noah's house though the 2nd time time around.

Re: Thoughts about the Story of The Lost Crown – beware of huge spoilers! [Re: misa] #302456
03/30/08 12:08 PM
03/30/08 12:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 39,388
southeast USA
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Jenny100  Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 39,388
southeast USA
Click to reveal..
I thought the increasing number of colors had to do with the Agers being gradually defeated. I can't remember for sure, but I think there were two times I noticed an increase in color number, one after Thomas Ager was contained at Northfield and the next after Frederick was defeated in the Net Hut (and you saw the images of two of the Agers breaking up in the painting of the Agers instead of just one).

Which reminds me of something else I didn't really understand. Why do you see Nigel's picture inside the Ager painting at one point?

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