Ok Boom Boom Boomers...

I want to talk about sub-genres of adventure games, but let me get around to it with some examples.

Jonathan Boakes, who has been so kind and generous to this site (and in general) has a certain... feel about the games he makes or is involved in.

There is a certain atmosphere or kind of creepiness which I love and think he successfully achieves, not only in his own games but also in the games he has been involved in (I am thinking of Barrow Hill and also, although the circumstances may have been different, Scratches).

The original Dark Fall is probably the game that most impressed me in this way. But there have been others. Amber: Journeys Beyond comes to mind, but there was some of this intangible feeling, at least a little, in games such as the 7th Guest, 11th Hour (one of the first games I played), Blackstone Chronicles, The Forgotten, and of course the subsequent Dark Fall games.

I know I am leaving a lot out here (my memory is failing me) but it leads me to my first question, my dear Boomers:

What other games have this kind of quality that if you play them at night with the lights off you just may get that "certain" feeling?

My second point and question is whether we, together, can identify other sub-genres of adventure games?

For example there are MYST-y games and among them I would put RHEM, Schizm, REAH, and Obsidian. It's not just the lonely point and click feeling, because I don't get that feeling from games like The Crystal Key, Timelapse. or any of the Atlantis games. There is a sense in which the games of the MYST-y type that I might describe as "arid" (although this is certainly debatable concerning the later Myst games). I don't know how to make myself clear about this, and that is why I am asking for help.

There are also a kind of comedy games like the Space Quest series, the Monkey Island series, Day of the Tentacle, Stupid Invaders, Toonstruck, and, heck... going all the way back to the Zork series.

Then, there's Gabriel Knight.

Don't get me wrong, I love all these games.

But am I on to something in trying to gather these games in my mind mainly, if not soley, to be able to appeal to the community for games like these?

Categorization would always be disputable, and I understand that. But if one is seeking merely the generation of lists of games one might seek out to play, even a sloppy, indeterminate kind of grouping may be helpful.

But, of course, there will always be games that just don't really fit anywhere. Here I am thinking of Traitors' Gate, and perhaps Overclocked.

Epic games such as The Longest Journey should probably get a category, as should the PI genre of my beloved Tex Murphy.

And yet, there is already a sub-genre which is pretty well defined... or at least helpfully defined. I am thinking of games that are more puzzle driven than plot or atmosphere driven. Safecracker, Pandora's Box, Jewel of the Oracle, and perhaps 9 and Shivers would fit, I think.

Am I talking nonsense inspired by insomnia, or does anyone out there see what I'm driving at and why it might be helpful?

Thanks for reading the ravings of someone too tired to realize hundreds of people must have come up with the same idea.

Raj,
I'm not too clear on what type of classifications you're looking for. You start out talking about classifying by "atmosphere" -- "Dark-Fall-like" or "Myst-like." Then you start mentioning more conventional genres like Comedy genre and Private Investigator genre, which aren't generally atmospheric. Also, it's not clear what you mean by "Epic" -- do you just mean "long" or does it imply some sort of journey?

One other thing

The word "arid" is debatable regarding any of them.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ARID
1 : excessively dry; specifically : having insufficient rainfall to support agriculture
2 : lacking in interest and life : jejune

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/arid?jss=0
1. being without moisture; extremely dry; parched: arid land; an arid climate.
2. barren or unproductive because of lack of moisture: arid farmland.
3. lacking interest or imaginativeness; sterile; jejune: an arid treatment of an exciting topic.

The Myst games aren't arid in any of the senses of the word. Not only are they full of water, but I don't think any fan of the Myst games found the Ages to be unimaginative or lacking interest. Maybe you mean "deserted," "isolated," or "abandoned" instead. There's the feeling that people used to live there, but then some tragedy happened... and maybe there's still danger.

Hey Jenny100!
First of all thank you for replying to my rambling post. And for the lesson on using the word "arid."

"... not only are they full of water..."

Well now, thst's certainly not what I meant! (HA!)

But, what is it then that would make me feel like RHEM and Myst kind of go together?

Deserted, isolated, abandoned... yes, that is much more what I mean... that is why Schizm seems to fit.

Perhaps all I mean is "if you liked this, try these," and that's all there is to it.

The kind of thing that happens all the time.

With regard to "arid" I think I mean isolated and abandoned most of all. And no or minimal interaction with other characters.

I really just wanted to start a discussion and see where it leads. Everything is debatable, that's part of the point of the discussion. But the other point, as I said, would be a kind of "if you like these, you'll probably like these other ones, too."

The comedy genre is likely the easiest to get a handle on. The Private Investigator list would probably be small. But I thought more about it and Blade Runner would fit (if that's an adventure game... which is of course a whole different debate). And Tony Tough And the Night of the Roasted Moths would arguably span both categories, but Tony isn't like The Dame was Loaded.

The Longest Journey is a game in which a lone character must go on (geez, I want to say "epic" again) a long journey, or a quest (although that sounds so broad I hesitate as I type it) to try to save two worlds from a common crisis.

The old "save the universe" kind of thing, but.. but... but... gee I don't know... there seems to me to be something there that is more Lord of the Ring-ish. (Well now... mentioning that just made this as clear as mud, eh?)

I'll give up unless I can actually come up with lists of the kind I mean.

(But yes, I'm frustrated.)

Thanks again for giving the matter some thought.

Seemed like a promising idea at the time.

I think you could categorize in many ways, and some games would fall into more than one category.

The question would be your goal in categorizing. Doing it just for the fun of doing it? Or doing it so you can play similar games?

Generally, when someone posts and says (for instance): "I'd like to play a game like Syberia," then people here post with Syberia-like games. It helps if the person says what they liked about Syberia, defining it even further. Do they want a third person game with a journey/quest, a female protagonist, and middlingly difficult puzzles? Or do they want a game with quirky NPCs, beautiful landscapes and a mournful, rather mystical atmosphere?

Some categories are "easier" than others -- games that make you laugh, games that scare you, games that have strong stories. Other qualities of a game are harder to define, including atmosphere, puzzle difficulty, and the strength/depth of the characters or themes.

I agree that there are subgenres, but getting a concise definition won't be possible. There are too many variables. As much as we adventure players know what separates adventures from other genres, there is still alot of division within the adventure community. One only has to visit different forums to appreciate the diversity of what constitutes an adventure game. And yet most of us know right away what an adventure is not.
I really don't think we need to be in agreement (which will never happen ), as much as each of us has to identify what we want from our games. That takes practice, so as mentioned above, finding games like the ones we like is a starting point. Hanging out at the forums gives you a chance to see what other people play. If you like similar games, you can follow their recommendations.

My philosophy is ....
If it sounds halfway decent , give it a go !! :grin12:

If we're being realistic, the fact is that only the individual person can decide - - from actually playing a game - into which sub division of Adventure he or she might place it.

Because, as colpet so rightly says, none of us will ever totally agree on "what constitutes what" amid all the variations present in "Adventures".

Cheers.

Mad :wave12:

I'd have to agree with Mad on this one. It's up to the individual to actually decide firstly to play a game and secondly into what subdivision if any the game actually belongs to. For example someone might categorise a game with time puzzles into "action adventure" whereas i categorise a game as action adventure if it has some sort of killing or fighting in it. Some people consider the latter to be some sort of role playing game, a completely different genre than adventure.

I don't think it's a bad idea. If you're looking for science fiction games, for example, it would be faster to check a list of likely possibilities than to check an unsorted list of adventure games -- even if you're looking for a particular type of science fiction.

But I think you have to keep the categories fairly general. Otherwise you'll have to do the bulk of the work yourself. For example, you say RHEM reminds you of Myst games while Timelapse does not. What was the distinction there? Wasn't Timelapse also a solitary game? You need a clear explanation of why RHEM fits and Timelapse doesn't or people won't be able to contribute.

Well, gee whiz, but I thought "arid" was a perfect description of Myst, best I've come across. As you can see I'm not a fan of Myst. I classify Rhem with Myst just by looking at the screenshots and yes, they have that arid look to me. Dry, boring, lonely, nothingness.
BTW, I gave Myst a second chance when the game went online at GameTap as a multi-player game and while it was fun for a bit at the beginning, long before it was cancelled, I had already stopped playing it.

I reckon at least sort them by year/first person/3rd person, things like this.

SO much thanks to you all as usual.
I think now that things are so complicated that lists would not be useful except as discussion starters. SkeeterUK probably has the best idea.

Games, I think, could be categorized into general features such as first or third person, supernatural, futuristic science fiction, mystery/detective (which I guess might include the Nancy Drew extravadanda), comedy, no
non-interactive characters, primarily puzzle (rather than plot games), easy inventory puzzles or lots of math puzzles, or something.

But actually, I suppose everyone might have their own lists, dictated by their own perspective based on what they found distinctive about a game. I also realized that, however inadequately done, sites like Moby games already try to do this. Just Adventure (a site that is more commercial for my tastes) also has at the end of their revues, stuff like "if you liked this game read xyz, and play xyz..." and so on.

The really best idea, it seems to me, is for individuals to simply post that they liked a game and would others like to suggest similar games.

SO... lists of sub-genre games is not the greatest idea I've ever had(..and my list of good ideas is meagerly short!).
re
It just takes a great community like this one, willing to help find games that might turn on gamers who loved a game and want more.

Ok... self criticism rant over.
I, humbly, have another idea.
A sticky post, search-able, called... I have no idea what to call it... But something like "member suggestions if you liked x." Or, "members lists of recommended similar games."

That is probably a worse idea than my original dismal idea... But, as always, perhaps you all could tell me why it's such a bad idea.

I only ask this: Please see that my original idea was to do something good and helpful for fellow gamers.

If anyone can think of anything to say on the topic (and... I already know that this is such a community that someone somewhere (over the rainbow?) will have two cents to put in), please post. I know I will be enriched by the input of minds greater than my own... as I have already been enriched.

Thanks one and all!

Sierramindy, let's try to leave your personal preference out of this. There are plenty of Myst fans who didn't find Myst the least bit dry or uninteresting, and Raj didn't intend that definition either or he wouldn't have said he loved all the games.

I loved all the games, Jenny. Which, to my disappointment has only run to Exile, so far.

Just trying to, altogether too subjectively, see what games reminded me of others as similar.

I still think the RHEM-Myst pairing holds up.

May the new year bring you health and happiness!

I think the general features category would be great as my first question about a game is always whether it is first or third person and you would be surprised how hard it is to find that out sometimes. Certainly not by the description of the game as that has fooled me more than once. I also think "easy inventory puzzles" would be a neat category and a big help! That way a person could steer clear of games that get too inventive and complicated so that a walkthrough is an absolute must. (I needed 2 walkthroughs to finish my last game!)

Hey sierramindy!
Great points I hadn't thought of.
I have a great preference for first-person games, although I have found and know that great games are still great games even in the third person. I just seem to forget that when choosing what to play (or, much more rarely than I'd like, what to buy). And there are simply times I want first-person immersion. And I also know the troubles with trying to determine which kind of game is which (and some games are even a little of both).

Your second point about "easy [classic] inventory puzzles" is well made, too. Consider a game I have considered a thousand times before because I love the book it is supposedly based on: RAMA (The book is called Rendevous with Rama, Aurther C. Clarke of 2001, a Space Oddessy fame... and, on an entirely unrelated note, my older sister happens to be named "Rama").

Now... the point is, the reason I never got, nor want to get RAMA, is because REVIEWERS warned that many of the puzzles are math puzzles that involve different number systems than base ten.

But you see, I got that from the reviewers. Which leaves me with a little delemma. I consciously try to NOT read reviews, and, heck, not even look at the back of the box, too much. I don't want anything spoiled. SO... I usually go the the reviewers I trust and read their final grade, and then... since I play only old games that I can get cheap or in trades... I wait around places like here and see what kind of reputation a game eventually ends up with.

In fact, just in the last year I actually went to the store and BAAGS kicked in big time, and so with much real-time consulting by cell phone with the woman I live (and budget) with I actually bought a game retail (GASP!). I didn't look at the box much... it just appealed to me... or maybe it was the musak in the store... I don't know.

But the game was OVERCLOCKED and I give it my highest recommendation. It is completely original in concept and execution, as far as I know, for an adventure game; it is brilliantly done; and it is simply a compelling good time (!). Third-person, point-n-click, moderate puzzles (mostly inventory), PC, XP, no on-line capabilities, Nigerian subtitles. That's my mini-review.


But my real point here is that I think this could and perhaps should be handled by reviewers. It doesn't diminish their role or quality of reviews. But to have a little more than system requirements listed at the bottom might be a very helpful good thing.

SO... with sierraminy in mind (or in Sierra?) mayhaps could I introduce a new topic... an off topic?... into this thread:

What information would you find most helpful, even if it wasn't on a review but instead handled on a list placed somewhere else?

Point-n-click, no keyboard.
Keyboard, no mouse.
PC
Mac
PC/Mac
OS10/XP/Vista/Win7/Win8/Win9/Win10... Win until everyone can't buy it because somehow all money has come to be owned by Mr. Trump and all gaming will go back to DOS.
First person.
Third person.
Beginner mostly inventory puzzles.
Advanced mini-game puzzles. (trying to figure out what to say about Safecracker or Pandora's Box here)
On-line capability.
Only on-line.
Exclusively and entirely in Nigerian with no subtitles.

... uh, get what I mean?

I think a list kept somewhere like on this site (HINT HINT HINT) would be great. But there are already sites with reviews that give some of this information, and reviewers who always give some of this information, and even data bases that include some of this information.

And, finally, here in the wonderful land of Gameboomers... you can probably ask any question at all and be answered within a half-hour (Nigerian time).

Hey, once again, Happy Decade, Happy New Year, and all the years to come.

Nigerian?

How about a category for games with strange player character movements? (Twitching, sleeve-pulling, head removal, etc.) And a category for games where the sky is a color other than blue, since blue is so ordinary. And a category for games where the translation is especially good, since that is particularly difficult to accomplish. And a category for games with more female than male characters?

Somebody, do this for me please. Hint, hint hint.

That's a good one though.

It is irritating to see head scratching or shifting from one foot to another when you're staring at the screen and thinking what to do next. It's like tapping the fingers on table.

Okay, okay, okay.
You nailed me Becky.
The most I should do is write to Moby games to see if I can get the other than blue sky thing in.

Once again, I see that I have produced very simple minded posts in this thread.

I can only appreciate that some have given up their precious time and minds to consider the idea or perhaps the desire I originally started with.

Still... this thread hasn't been a totally uninteresting exchange of ideas, huh?

Raj, it isn't that your ideas are bad, it's just the fact you are recommending that someone else do them. We are all volunteers that work this website with real lives, full time jobs and families just like the members. The staff here gets to play the games far less then you can because of other duties. We do more than just post here and there.

Ana

Hmmm, I was thinking of volunteering (in spite of 2 years in the army where one never volunteers for anything) but then another part of my brain kicked in (the thinking part?) and asked me, "How can you possibly come up with categories when the only agreement here is that everybody disagrees? On the other hand, maybe with good categories there would be a chance for more, oops, some agreement?

Category:
1. Character movements while waiting for gamers to make their move: Yes ___ No ___
2. Format: First Person ___ Third Person ___
3. Translation: Good ___ Fair ___ Poor ___
4. Puzzles: Inventory ___ Math ___ Slider ___ Timed ___ Hard ___ So/so hard ___ Easy ___
5. Action: Some easy stuff ___ Hard to impossible: ___ (Need great reflexes!)

Okay, gamers: How does the above grab you? It is only a first try, after all.

Works for me!

Ana

Thanks for the kind words Ana, as always.

And sierramindy... You GO girl (or is it boy?)!!!!

The only thing I can think of, at the moment of course, is about timed puzzles. Are these necessarily action puzzles?

Otherwise... I gotta tell you... I am way more excited than when I started this thread or Christmas or even NEW YEARS!!! (but... um... in my timezone it's only 4 pm, so I gotta kinda wait and see if something truly magical happens on New Years... You know, like I'll get through a game without a walkthrough or something)


PS... Sierramindy... I would be afraid to take on the whole thing myself, but maybe we could do it together... with tons of help from our fellow Boomers, of course. Then again, reviewers or others who have just played the game would be much faster. Gee... maybe all it would take is a designated thread.

Just for the heck, I'll try and write down what I look for (remember it's subjunctive):
1- mouse (vs. keyboard)
2- 1st (vs. 3rd)
3- no action/stealth/combat or timed bits
4- lots of places to explore. 3D not a necessity, but I'm ok with it.
5- minimal or no character interation (vs NPCs)

Here's where it gets more complicated:
6- logical puzzles - spatial, mathematical and mechanical - best in a layered presentation (vs. inventory and dialogue)
7- Story unfolds as you explore and read or interpret clues as to what has happened. Cut scenes can help (vs. discovery through dialogue)

It's obvious that I'm a Myst groupie. But having said that there are some games that fit my criteria that I didn't like - Voyage, Mystery of the Nautilus - and others that I loved:
Gabriel Knight 2 and 3 (lots of talk)
The Dig (3rd person)
Uru (action)
Tex Murphy games (action and dialogue)
Syberia 1 and 2 (3rd person, dialogue)
The Longest Journey (3rd person, lots and lots of talk)

When I can't even come into agreement with myself , getting any type of consitency in a group is impossible.

Raj, there are no permanent stickied threads here in Discussions, Something of extraordinary value is made into a link at the top of the forum, but that is decided upon by the admins. We have to reserve the space for press releases and such that at times exceed the amount of room we have without having an entire page of stickied announcements. Threads are bumped up each time someone adds info, so if people are participating it will stay up on its own.

Ana