"I suspect that Jensen and Schafer were good writers from the beginning."

I suspect you're right. <g>

"If, as a gamer, you struggle through hours of poorly written or translated dialog, you wonder why they didn't hire a writer because the writing has such a direct impact on the gaming experience."

I came relatively late to gaming so you know a lot more about games and gaming than I do but ignorance doesn't seem to stop me so I have to ask if poorly translated dialogue really belongs in the same category as poor writing.

Some writers/programmers in non-English speaking countries (where a lot of AGs are made these days) may not have the bucks for a decent translation but clearly have the talent to write a good game - if they can afford to make them. (Thinking about Tol here though that's not really fair since he did a good job on the English version of ToH.) The sad thing there is that they don't have the backing of companies like Sierra or LucasArts were in their heyday to ensure they will have the chance.

I'll third that motion for a "skip the action" option!

Gil.

Late to the discussion, so not much to add except to say I echo the preference for "mature, story driven" adventure games. The Gabriel Knights were some of the best examples of that type, as was Grim Fandango. I do think this type of game is still being made, but the games of the same quality seem to be few and far between. Not to say they aren't enjoyable, just not of the same caliber. In the past year or two, I think Gray Matter has come the closest.

I will also fourth the motion for the "skip the action" option. I would love to play strong story driven games like Heavy Rain, but they are just too action oriented for my tastes. So I have to settle for watching this type of play through on YouTube.

venus, you're here! <g>

So what do you think a "mature, story-driven game" is?

Mr. Böke put his requirements this way: "I’m seeking for true emotions, deep psychological conflicts, characters that feel like real human beings...."

In effect, he seems to be looking for realism. At least that's the way I read it. And IMO, that restricts the field of what constitutes a good, well-written, compelling game too much.

Maybe I'm confused about the meaning of "mature" in regard to adventure games. I know what he thinks and I believe I know what oldmariner thinks but what about you?

Gil.

I'm not "venus" but here I am anyway !!

"Mature" for me would be when adult characters behave in a definitely adult way - whatever the storyline.

So I would say (for me) many older games (some already mentioned) qualify as having obviously mature story lines because of their "adult" issues or content.

For instance :

Gabriel Knight [Series]
Phantasmagoria [Both]
The Blackstone Chronicles
Sanitarium
The Black Dahlia
Ripper
Tex Murphy [Series]

But the Broken Sword games actually carry a mature theme too - although the visually cartoon style characters of the earlier releases might dilute that effect.

Slightly more recent games of a mature aspect (also for me) would include :

Sherlock Holmes [Frogwares]
Still Life
Post Mortem
The Black Mirror [Series]

This is a great topic!

I have noticed that time and again I always return to the old classic adventure games when I want to immerse myself in a good story and interesting characters. I don't think this applies to only adventure games though. These days most game genres feel diluted to me. I think it's, because big companies want their games to please everyone. In the Gabriel Knight games you have to go through complete archives of information and you must for example go through a huge museum exhibition and look at all the items and read all there is to read. I found that extremely interesting and immersive, but I know some people definitely wouldn't.

I've played most of the TellTale adventure games (Sam&Max, Monkey Island, Back to the Future) and I must say that they have nice gameplay and stories, but I don't really get that much out of it. This might sound kind of stupid, but I sometimes think that older adventure games are like books and new adventure games are like tv series made out of a book. They are very compressed and offer you the bare necessities of creating an immersive atmosphere.

I worked on the team that created Alpha Polaris so I have first-hand experience on how difficult it is to create an adventure game, let alone a good one I can't really comment on how well we managed, since I'm just too close to the project to see it objectively, but I did realize a few things. As you have already discussed on this topic, immersion and interesting characters take A LOT of dialogue and background information about the characters and their surroundings. The atmosphere of the game is also a key factor. The music, the characters and the mood and feel of the game needs to sweep you in. I also feel that you should develop some emotions for the characters and care a lot about what happens to them. Even to this day I still wonder what happened to Gabriel and Grace and if they ended up dating

All of the things I mentioned above need the perfect surroundings to develop. You can't really create something very unique if you work in a big company where tasks are micromanaged and the end product is really noones lovechild. Independent developers have other problems resulting from lack of resources and time.

All in all I think that the game industry is changing and content is becoming more important than the visuals. Let's hope that this development brings with is some great games!

Far from sounding stupid, Veera, that's a very interesting observation!


Gil.

Arghghghg! I missed Alpha Polaris on my list. Adding it in now.

I agree!

That is a new one to me. I'll have to check it out Becky.

I prefer the more mature games also.

These games lasted all of 5 mins for me before I uninstalled them due to them being either too silly or childish

sam and max
nancy drew
vampyre story although i did actually get through it.
edna n harvey


im sure there are more....who knows tho due to the lack of new adv games i may be forced to play them

I'm not sure yet what's meant by 'mature'. If it means 'rooted in reality' then looking at the games I've enjoyed most, reality isn't much of a plus for me.

Gil.

You may have heard it said when growing up, "act mature, don't act like a kid." I knew what was meant when I heard that, and the consequences if I didn't comply. But does that saying necessarily apply to computer games?

Perhaps when "mature" is spoken of in relation to computer games it doesn't mean adult themes, real life experiences, but a game that has gone from diapers, to sneakers, to polished shoes. A game that holds the players' interest during play, makes the player want to continue playing, and doesn't resemble games written when computers first hit the mass market.

Perhaps it means a story line that grips you the way a good book keeps you up late because you can't stop reading. Perhaps it means a game that confronts your personality, the beliefs you hold, or the morals you hold to. Perhaps it means a game that challenges you as a human being and what it means to be human. Perhaps it refers to a game that makes you think as you play.

My gaming experience is very limited, but I seem to remember many good games were produced by small independent companies, mom and pop shops if you will. But those mom and pop shops were soon acquired by large companies when they started making names for themselves, and their games were making something of a profit. I believe this was the start when games starting showing their pixels.

Mom and pop shops cared about producing a good product, not that some large companies don't. It's just that "the bottom line" wasn't at the top of the list. Being swallowed by a large company causes things to change, including the order of importance when something is produced. Oh, yes, producing a good product is on that list just not the first line. Today, the bottom line is the first thing on the list, analyzing the projected profit compared to expenses should the project proceed. And the funny thing is, no one can fault a company for doing so because the computer software is such an "iffy" business.

But I believe there are times when the bottom line does interfere with the production of a first rate product, due to someone believing more will be made in this genre over the genre that made the name in the first place. As a result, you have developers who are excellent in one genre, trying to write for ones they know nothing about. And why should this be a problem, the question is asked when these developers express their dismay at the task. After all, a good mystery writer should be able to write a good science fiction story. Right? So the bean counter may believe.

We now come back to a question that's been asked again and again in this thread. What constitutes a mature game? Can it be defined? Should it be defined? Should I believe a game isn't mature on the word of another gamer? Doesn't our gaming experience play a factor in determining what's mature and what isn't? Isn't a person whose gamed for 30 years going to want something different than one who has gamed for 5? Or the gamer whose played since Sinclair was on the market compared to the gamer when PCs hit the mass market?

If you really want a definition for a mature game you'll have to look to yourselves for the answer. Only the individual can determine what is or isn't mature because only you know your likes and dislikes when it comes to computer games. Only you know what level of play will once more make you forget all the cares within the world.

Ah, traveler, I missed your post! So sorry for the delay!

It looks like in the interim, so many other posters have expressed it better than I could, but I will try to answer your question.

As far as realism goes, I like realistically drawn characters, but that doesn't necessarily mean the situations have to be based in reality. In fact, quite often, I prefer that they aren't. While I prefer intricate story lines, I like the escapism offered in fantastical situations. There are exceptions of course, such as Still Life, which is high on my list. Even with that game, though, one of my favorite aspects was going back and forth between the different time periods.

I know you're not a fan, but The Longest Journey is one of my top games, and I thought it did a good job of introducing you to a more grounded environment. Of course, it's a strange futuristic land as well, but it felt believable, and April felt like a real person with real concerns. Then, when Arcadia was introduced, her reactions felt quite natural which helped keep the immersion.

As for your favorite game (and one of mine, certainly ), Grim Fandango, the characters in this game aren't people at all, though they once were. Nevertheless, they feel very realistic and relatable. (Okay, why is the spell check telling me that "relatable" isn't a word? ) Manny's office environment was very recognizable, and my favorite place, Rubacava, seemed like a real place I'd like to visit.

Anyway, I suppose that was a roundabout way of answering your question. I suppose ultimately, realism is important to a certain extent because the "mature" game needs to express something the audience can identify with. And the themes presented have to be things we can understand in relation to our own lives, even if we haven't been through those things personally. Very often, however, fantasy and science fiction are good mediums to tell these stories with because you can use these things as metaphors. Plus, as I've said, escapism is always fun.

I feel the need to say agin that "mature content" means different things to different people so it will surely always be difficult to satisfy everyone

I really don't know what Mature Adventure Gaming is ...

Maybe some people want more Sex, Violence, but you can get that Hard Core Shooters...

I personally like AG's the way they are....Fantasy, and more Fantasy...

Well, I think what I'm getting from those who complain about the lack of "mature" adventure games is that they want games with more psychological depth, realistic graphics (FMV preferably) and people in realistic if perhaps hypothetical situations, even if those situations venture into the realm of the unlikely or even bizarre. And a good many of them, I get the feeling, would like more very hard games of the sort that would throw me, anyway, for a loop.

I may be wrong, won't be the first time.

So I'm thinking about it and the best I can come up with is that a mature game is one that has a serious theme - perhaps it would be better to say a universal theme - but it doesn't have to attack it; it can approach it with humor and subtlety and it doesn't have to involve window-on-the-world graphics. Which is not much of a definition, I guess. But it's not an easy thing to define, certainly not for this one person with one person's tastes and preferences. But, you know, it's interesting and worth a thought or two, IMO.

Gil.

Possibly 'mature' means 'as opposed to juvenile' (only Darleen03 can explain as the originater of the thread, although I suspect she didn't expect it to become so introspective and personal)?

Perhaps we might hear a bit more from Jack Vanian who first posted his ideas on this thread?

Jack Vanian had an accident shortly after he added the first post and is in hospital since then. I hope he will soon be able to be online again. I have visited him last friday and he's progressing well, so chances are good to see him here in the next weeks.

Hi neon. I had heard about the accident, but hadn't connected it with Jack. We are all hoping that he is recovering rapidly!

Thanks for letting us know.

Michael,

Send our GameBoomers well wishes for a fast and complete recovery to Jack Vanian.

Thanks.

I was also unaware of the connection of the injured to Jack. I too add my best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Ana

Sorry to hear about Jack. Best wishes for a fast recovery!!

That's not good.

Hope your getting around soon Jack.


Dunn T

Please count me in with any "well wishes"