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Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: gamenut] #812654
06/01/12 01:43 PM
06/01/12 01:43 PM
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McClure P.A. USA.
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This is what i did.I was forced to change for mats
Windows XP to Vista,now Windows 7.
I like all the new stuff but i could not play all
the old games i like.
I went to my computor store and ask if i could but a Windows 98 laptop.
He said yes i have some collecting dust.
Bought it for 25.00.The battery is shot so
it must be plugged in to play.
I loaded Amber Journeys and was in heaven.
I am playing all my old games again.
Next is Shivers................Ron

Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: gamenut] #812656
06/01/12 01:47 PM
06/01/12 01:47 PM
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Ron, how great: You get to play Amber: Journeys Beyond. How I envy you--I loved that game.


The answer is....chocolate! Who cares what the question is.....
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Jenny100] #812884
06/02/12 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jenny100

It's great that we are still getting some 1st person adventures like the Dark Fall games, Barrow Hill, Rhiannon, Scratches, and The Last Half of Darkness games, but it seems that the RHEM series is the only series that is NOT a horror/supernatural themed game.


What about the AGON series? A new one is in development - the 5th in the series. And Testament of Sherlock Holmes is coming up as well as a new game from Unimatrix Productions, developers of Lifestream and Shady Brook (although that one looks like it will probably be horror).

I too dislike the cartoony style and get little joy from games like Whispered World or Book of Written Tales. They're just too commonplace and silly to be anything more than a diversion. 3rd person just doesn't draw me in as much. Directing a character around the screen isn't as intriguing as BEING that character and using your own eyes and ears to explore and solve puzzles.

Last edited by Wincey; 06/02/12 09:30 PM.
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Wincey] #812885
06/02/12 09:42 PM
06/02/12 09:42 PM
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"Directing a character around the screen isn't as intriguing as BEING that character and using your own eyes and ears to explore and solve puzzles"

It's a matter of personal taste ....

I really enjoy directing my character around the screen to solve puzzles and explore. And after all, it is actually MY eyes and ears he/she is using lol


Time : The Most Precious Commodity
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: gamenut] #812900
06/02/12 10:03 PM
06/02/12 10:03 PM
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AGON 5 would qualify -- if it ever comes out. It's been over 4 years since the last one was published.

Sherlock Holmes is more of a story-based game than a puzzle-based one. Besides, for me it's 3rd person because Frogwares' 3D engine gives me motion sickness in the 1st person mode. I'm not sure how many other people use the 3rd person mode when playing it.

And Christopher Brendel's (Unimatrix's) upcoming game Stonewall Penitentiary does look like a horror game.

Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Mad] #812926
06/02/12 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mad
"Directing a character around the screen isn't as intriguing as BEING that character and using your own eyes and ears to explore and solve puzzles"

It's a matter of personal taste ....

I really enjoy directing my character around the screen to solve puzzles and explore. And after all, it is actually MY eyes and ears he/she is using lol


King's Quest:
>Look at waterfall
- "My, what a beautiful waterfall!"

Developers in 1st person games need to make the essential parts of the environment visual or audible. In 3rd person games they can be hidden and the character can describe the important aspects to the player. Having to "look at" an item vicariously through the character is less pleasing to me than looking at it myself. That's why I find 1st person more sensual and less reliant on words. Some 3rd person games avoid this - Machinarium for example.

Originally Posted By: Jenny100

And Christopher Brendel's (Unimatrix's) upcoming game Stonewall Penitentiary does look like a horror game.


I'm pretty sure Stonewall Penitentiary was put on hold indefinitely, and the new title in development is a different one. At least that's the impression I get from the FAQ on the Unimatrix website, but I may be wrong.

Last edited by Wincey; 06/02/12 11:26 PM.
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Wincey] #812939
06/03/12 01:50 AM
06/03/12 01:50 AM
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"King's Quest:
>Look at waterfall
- "My, what a beautiful waterfall!"
"

My goodness, you are going back a very long way for that example, Wincey !! laugh

I'm quite sure in more modern games there is much less use of those older "indirect" ways of seeing what is round and about.

But I have no wish to labour the point. As I said before, it's a matter of personal taste grin


Time : The Most Precious Commodity
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: gamenut] #812967
06/03/12 06:59 AM
06/03/12 06:59 AM
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I enjoy both first and third person, though I would agree that first person is superior if you favor exploration over story.

You can still tell a story in a first person game, but the story tends to require diaries or other characters to tell it. And you can focus on exploration in third person games, but (to me) guiding a character makes the exploration feel "mediated" unless the controls for the character are particularly easy and fluid.

I agree that third person games do tend to have more "wasn't that obvious?" environmental descriptions. I'm not sure why. If you can't say something that doesn't advance the story or reveal personality or hint at a direction to go -- then don't say anything at all. lol

Hmmm. Is the above too harsh?

Last edited by Becky; 06/03/12 07:00 AM.
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Becky] #812972
06/03/12 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: Becky

You can still tell a story in a first person game, but the story tends to require diaries or other characters to tell it.


Amerzone is a prime example of that. Evidently, Sokal didn't think it worked so well since he didn't use it again (did he?) and if you ask me, he was right. The only first person games I can think of right off hand that I've really enjoyed are the LHOD games, which are, of course, horror.

Quote:
And you can focus on exploration in third person games, but (to me) guiding a character makes the exploration feel "mediated" unless the controls for the character are particularly easy and fluid.


Explorers are a special type, methinks. The games are usually (if not always) so light on story that they can't hold my attention at all. Or they take so blasted long to get into the story that I am cross-eyed with boredom before that happens. I still haven't finished Scratches (another one with LOTS of reading). Snore.

I find the Boakes games particularly frustrating on the "mediated exploration" count but since I doubt anyone else agrees, I edited out that comment. He does, however, drive me nuts with his "mediated dialogue", never asking questions anyone else in the protagonist's shoes would want answers to.

Quote:
I agree that third person games do tend to have more "wasn't that obvious?" environmental descriptions. I'm not sure why. If you can't say something that doesn't advance the story or reveal personality or hint at a direction to go -- then don't say anything at all. lol

Hmmm. Is the above too harsh?


Well...gimme an example and I'll tell you. Try not to make it from a text adventure. grin

Although, I'm not sure I follow you. A 3rd person game usually shows you what happened, thus saving the need for tons of descriptive text passages. A picture being worth quite a few words, as they say.

Gil.


"Best not to think about it. I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought."
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: traveler] #812975
06/03/12 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted By: traveler
[quote=Becky]

Quote:
I agree that third person games do tend to have more "wasn't that obvious?" environmental descriptions. I'm not sure why. If you can't say something that doesn't advance the story or reveal personality or hint at a direction to go -- then don't say anything at all. lol

Hmmm. Is the above too harsh?


Well...gimme an example and I'll tell you. Try not to make it from a text adventure. grin

Although, I'm not sure I follow you. A 3rd person game usually shows you what happened, thus saving the need for tons of descriptive text passages. A picture being worth quite a few words, as they say.

Gil.


Isn't it the opposite? Surely you have played a 3rd person game where you have to click the eye on the object to reveal more information about that object BEFORE you are even able to start solving the puzzle. For example, in Broken Sword you have to look at a sack to find out that inside is some plaster of paris, and only then can you take some. It's this kind of gameplay which makes 3rd person tedious sometimes, because it means you have to "look at" everything in case it might have something relevant to a puzzle.

I think the look at function is out of date. Games are now capable of showing you everything, when back in the days of text adventures and simplistic graphics they couldn't, and descriptions had to be given by words.

Last edited by Wincey; 06/03/12 08:24 AM.
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Wincey] #812980
06/03/12 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted By: Wincey

Isn't it the opposite? Surely you have played a 3rd person game where you have to click the eye on the object to reveal more information about that object BEFORE you are even able to start solving the puzzle. For example, in Broken Sword you have to look at a sack to find out that inside is some plaster of paris, and only then can you take some. It's this kind of gameplay which makes 3rd person tedious sometimes, because it means you have to "look at" everything in case it might have something relevant to a puzzle.

I think the look at function is out of date. Games are now capable of showing you everything....


Um...I really don't follow you. In the real world you'd have to look in the sack to see what's in there. How on earth could the game show you the plaster of paris without your having to go to the tedious extreme of looking?

Gil.


"Best not to think about it. I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought."
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: traveler] #812984
06/03/12 08:49 AM
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You'd see it. With your eyes, and not the character's. 1st person is capable of doing that, but not 3rd person. Unless it gives you a close-up.

Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: gamenut] #812986
06/03/12 08:52 AM
06/03/12 08:52 AM
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And you'd know what it was?

As I said, explorers are a special type.

Gil.


"Best not to think about it. I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought."
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: traveler] #813005
06/03/12 10:20 AM
06/03/12 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted By: traveler
How on earth could the game show you the plaster of paris without your having to go to the tedious extreme of looking?

You'd click on the sack and see it, which would take less time than listening to the character say that there was a sack of plaster of paris in there. Not tedious at all, and some 3rd person games do it that way too, giving a 1st person closeup when you look at things, and going back to 3rd person when you back out of the screen.

Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: gamenut] #813006
06/03/12 10:25 AM
06/03/12 10:25 AM
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Kentwood, Left my heart in New...
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I loved lots of the older games, especially the cartoony ones. I also love the new adventure games, maybe even a little better.
Also I don't see adventure games dying at all. IMO there are more now than ever before.
Also, I enjoy both 1st and 3rd person games. The choice by the game designer is always right on for that particular game.

Last edited by JohnBoy; 06/03/12 10:27 AM.

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----------------
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: gamenut] #813007
06/03/12 10:27 AM
06/03/12 10:27 AM
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Speaking as an "explorer" type of gamer -- nearly every third person game I've ever played has examples of environment/item description that don't add much.

Examples:

Descriptions that simply identify.

"It's a fountain." "It's a bird." "It's a painting."

I can nearly always tell that it's a fountain or a bird or a painting without clicking on it. I don't need to be told.

Other examples -- something is described, but in an entirely obvious way.

"What a beautiful rose!" (I haven't seen many ugly ones in my time.)

"The sky is perfectly clear." Well, yeah, I see that.

"That store sells fish." Yep, sure enough, there's a sign near the entrance in the shape of a fish that says: "Fish Market" on it.

Environment and item descriptions should be as important as dialog, and the same care should be given to writing them. IMHO. grin




Last edited by Becky; 06/03/12 10:32 AM.
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Jenny100] #813012
06/03/12 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: Jenny100

You'd click on the sack and see it, which would take less time than listening to the character say that there was a sack of plaster of paris in there.


Plaster of Paris probably isn't a very good example of what you're talking about, then. In the real world, if I did look in the sack (with my own eyes) I still wouldn't know what it contained unless the sack had a label on it or I was dumb enough to put a wet hand in there. White powder is rather generic.

Still, I see what you're saying but I do not see the tediousness of it. I didn't find that (or any other) segment of Broken Sword tedious except trying to get past that goat. Saying that hearing or reading a short description such as"That's Plaster of Paris" is time consuming when a first person game can require you to read a book at certain times during play is really reaching for a criticism, IMO.


"I can nearly always tell that it's a fountain or a bird or a painting without clicking on it. I don't need to be told."

I'll grant you that. Although, you are more perspicacious than most people, Becky. grin


Gil.

Last edited by traveler; 06/03/12 10:55 AM.

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Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: traveler] #813029
06/03/12 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted By: traveler
Plaster of Paris probably isn't a very good example of what you're talking about, then.

That was your example. I'm just saying it takes less time to click on something and see a closeup than to listen to the character talk about it. So if you think clicking on something is tedious, I don't see why you wouldn't think listening to the character describe it is even more tedious. And as I said before, seeing a closeup of the object when you click on it is something you see in some 3rd person games to.

Quote:
Saying that hearing or reading a short description such as"That's Plaster of Paris" is time consuming when a first person game can require you to read a book at certain times during play is really reaching for a criticism, IMO.

Having to read a book is not a characteristic specific to either 1st or 3rd person games. How would having to read a book in a 3rd person game be any less "tedious" than in a 1st person game?

Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Jenny100] #813034
06/03/12 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted By: Jenny100

That was your example. I'm just saying it takes less time to click on something and see a closeup than to listen to the character talk about it. So if you think clicking on something is tedious, I don't see why you wouldn't think listening to the character describe it is even more tedious.


Actually, it was Wincey's example, not mine. I never said I thought clicking on something was tedious. What does it matter if it takes a tiny bit more time to see or hear the character talk about something? I really don't understand the need to gain a half second of time in an adventure game that is not about getting things done quickly.

Quote:

Having to read a book is not a characteristic specific to either 1st or 3rd person games. How would having to read a book in a 3rd person game be any less "tedious" than in a 1st person game?


It wouldn't. But it's less likely to happen, IMO. Admittedly, I don't play that many first person games but in Scratches, for instance, I was faced with having to read a book almost as soon as I entered the house. In a 3rd person game, every bit of that book could have been covered in much less time in a cut scene. And probably would have been.

Gil.


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Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: gamenut] #813037
06/03/12 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Actually, it was Wincey's example, not mine.

OK. Sorry.
Quote:
I never said I thought clicking on something was tedious. What does it matter if it takes a tiny bit more time to see or hear the character talk about something? I really don't understand the need to gain a half second of time in an adventure game that is not about getting things done quickly.

Because it takes more than half a second to listen to the character talk, and it happens every time you click on something, so it's not just once. There are always complaints where a game doesn't allow you to "click through" the speech. It's not just about whether you or I think listening to the character takes too long or is repeated too often.

Quote:
It wouldn't. But it's less likely to happen, IMO. Admittedly, I don't play that many first person games but in Scratches, for instance, I was faced with having to read a book almost as soon as I entered the house. In a 3rd person game, every bit of that book could have been covered in much less time in a cut scene. And probably would have been.

Not necessarily. It depends on the game. Reading is usually much faster than covering the same material in a cut scene -- unless a lot of the text is description of the environment, which it usually isn't. Remember the long descriptions in The Longest Journey. And the Neverhood was famous for its wall. Uru could be played either in 1st or 3rd person (with the default being 3rd, where you see your avatar) and it had that whole room full of books that you could read to learn Uru's history. It's not exclusively 1st person games that give you a lot to read.

Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: traveler] #813091
06/03/12 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted By: traveler
Originally Posted By: Jenny100

That was your example. I'm just saying it takes less time to click on something and see a closeup than to listen to the character talk about it. So if you think clicking on something is tedious, I don't see why you wouldn't think listening to the character describe it is even more tedious.


Actually, it was Wincey's example, not mine. I never said I thought clicking on something was tedious. What does it matter if it takes a tiny bit more time to see or hear the character talk about something? I really don't understand the need to gain a half second of time in an adventure game that is not about getting things done quickly.


I didn't say it was tedious - that's your argument with Becky. I just dislike hearing verbal descriptions when I can use my own senses. And the plaster of paris example was a bad one, I admit. I was trying to think of another specific example, maybe where you have to click the eye on an item in your inventory to get another object - like having to look at a comb to get a hair from it. Plenty of 3rd person games have those.

One of the refreshing things I find about Myst-style games is the freedom from verbalization. I get enough of that in my own head when I'm playing and listening to someone else verbalize at the same time tends to grate on me. It's different with a book because that's all you've got. That's very much personal preference, though - I don't expect everyone else to feel the same.

Reading a book inside a game is not quite the same as hearing from the character "that's a beautiful sunset". You can see the senset yourself, and that it's beautiful. When the book gives you information it's the only source that it comes from.

Last edited by Wincey; 06/03/12 05:05 PM.
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Wincey] #813194
06/04/12 07:19 AM
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Quote:
One of the refreshing things I find about Myst-style games is the freedom from verbalization. I get enough of that in my own head when I'm playing and listening to someone else verbalize at the same time tends to grate on me. It's different with a book because that's all you've got. That's very much personal preference, though - I don't expect everyone else to feel the same.

Reading a book inside a game is not quite the same as hearing from the character "that's a beautiful sunset". You can see the senset yourself, and that it's beautiful. When the book gives you information it's the only source that it comes from.



Well said. I want a peaceful solitary experience from a game. I don't want to have chatter or conversation. There are some games where's it's ok, but we used to have more choice to play a 'quiet' game in between dialogue driven ones.

Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: colpet] #813337
06/04/12 07:03 PM
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Wow !! Some pretty pernickety stuff in parts of this thread ....

However, I actually like clicking on an item to let the game tell me what it is or what it might contain. Even if it does take a whole half a second !!
Guess I must be a "loner" lol

I loved all the really old 3rd person games and I still prefer that mode for modern games.
But that doesn't stop me enjoying 1st person.
It is just a preference.

After all, a good game is a good game whatever mode it's in thumbsup


Time : The Most Precious Commodity
Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Mad] #813344
06/04/12 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mad
I loved all the really old 3rd person games and I still prefer that mode for modern games.
But that doesn't stop me enjoying 1st person.
It is just a preference.

It's not just a preference when there are so few games of one of the other type being made, which is the reason for this thread -- the lack of choice. I used to enjoy 3rd person a lot more than I do now. Now that I can't alternate them with new 1st person games, it's only a really outstanding 3rd person game that interests me enough to finish it. It's not just about 1st or 3rd person -- it's about the number and type of puzzles you're apt to find in 1st person as compared to 3rd.

Re: Miss the Old Days... [Re: Jenny100] #813348
06/04/12 07:40 PM
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This thread has "evolved" rather a lot from gamenut's original post - with many opinions having been expressed and several issues discussed - so I thought it OK to join in and add what I thought myself.
But if you feel I'm missing the point, Jenny100, then I do apologise woozy


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