Colour of Murder - Mikael are you listening?

I just finished this nice game, loving it to the last scene. Now we have said that most of us don't like timed sequences, so why did you do that Mikael? If that last visit to Iris' apartment isn't a timed sequence, I'd like to know what you call it. Other than that I thought the hint system was a nice touch and a great help.

Sarahandus -- many games have a tough final puzzle in them, and sometimes these are timed, so if the last sequence in Colour is timed, it wouldn't be unusual.

I think the idea is to increase the tension before the end, but that's just a guess. It would be interesting to see how many gamers enjoy a tough final challenge, and how many prefer the toughest challenges to be mid-game, leaving easier challenges near the end when the gamer is dying to know who-done-it, etc.

I didn't mind the 'timed' part at all - but I did strike lucky & clicked on the right place first time. I did think it added to the tension of the story at that point.

While exploring

I thought that timed sequence was pretty minor as far as timed sequences go.

Generally, I could do without any kind of challenge, anywhere in a game. I like the pace to remain the same in the 'solution' part as in the 'sleuthing' parts. Nancy Drew had endgame (speed) challenges that were a little stressful, but overall, fairly gentle. Even so, I didn't care for them (ditto for those in-game).

Right now I'm savoring "The Colour of Murder" (read: playing slowly). Don't know how near I am to the end, but am probably close, since my map is well-filled. I can't remember if there were 'act-quick' challenges at the end of Carol Reed's other adventures. If so, I don't recall feeling stressed at the ends of them.

Sarahandus,

To begin with answering your question in the subject line: Yes, I am listening. All the way from Israel right now, actually.

I know that lots of adventure gamers don't like timed puzzles. I seldom like them myself since I don't like to get stressed while playing games.

The time limit in the final part of the last interactive scene in The Colour of Murder is not really supposed to impose a challenge on the player. It's only there because the scene wouldn't make any real sense if the it didn't have any time limit at all.

I can also tell you that it wasn't in my first version of the game, and it was the only scene in the game that was suggested by other people. And it was subject for a lots of discussion that I won't bore anyone with here. But I DO like the way it turned out in the game.

I certainly hope that no one has any problem with it due to the time limit, since it certainly wasn't my intention.

Mikael,

How nice to hear from you. As to the time limit on Iris' apartment, it was the shock of it that stalled me. Of course the second time through was no problem. The epilogue was wonderful, especially the punishments. And that picnic had me drooling all over the key board, nearly shorted it out.

I enjoy the leisurely pace of sleuthing through the city as seen through your eyes instead of a visitors center. I am absolutely facinated by your city.

Just want to say how much I love ALL of the Carol Reed games. I was not at all put out by the ending of Colour of Murder. And I can't wait for more!

How about adding a "puzzle skip" for the timed sequence?
Or allow people to choose "non-timed" as an option in the game menu or during the install?

I've also recently finished this great game, and found the timed sequence wasn't a problem at all. (Some people have very messy storage cupboards!)
Slightly off topic here, but does anyone know the significance of the clocks with no hands. I assumed it was a humourous reference to a previous game-Time stands still??

Whether some people have trouble getting through a timed sequence isn't really the point. Timed sequences can change a game from a relaxing experience to a stressful one, even if they're relatively easy for most gamers. I don't see why a few beta testers (who thought there should be one at the end) get to choose how the game will be played for everyone else. Better to make it optional and let the gamer choose.

Just remember that some adventure game players have limited vision and mobility and what is easy for most may be impossible for them. Remember ***this thread*** that we had not so long ago.

I didn't even notice it was timed until it was pointed out to me, but as Jenny100 says, that isn't the point. If it spoils the gentle experience that people are enjoying, then it might not be desirable.

I'd like to present my own (and totally subjective) point of view.

There are IMO two things to note.

1, I think that making those events optional in the menu would solve this problem once for all (and wouldn't be hard to make too) so for the sake of visually or motorically impaired gamers it would serve the purpose.

2, I disagree that it's senseless. Tension can be quite nice to have in the game providing you don't have to backtrack (as IMO you don't need to in CoM). I always find strange for example in The Longest Journey the infamous scene with The Gribbler.

You're attacked by a vicious creature which is obviously going to eat you and so the "run-around-the-table" begins. You watch it for a while, then go, make yourself a coffee, come back the gribbler still runs around with April (she's in quite good shape if you ask me to run for such a long time). Then someone calls you, you speak for 40 minutes on phone, then get to the screen and they still run around. So the tension is automatically gone.

So the timed sequence (if done right) would present the tension and feeling of urgency which (in case of this Iris' return) is really there. (it could have been done by not using real time per se, but for example action counter like it was done in different games, but the principle of punishment should be there).

Another interesting shift I've noticed in the adventure game development is that if you play any game (chess, football, hide and seek) someone wins while someone else loses. Here the game can never win over you, because we don't allow it to win (even if it would have been fair and logical in the context). So in my opinion adventure games turned away from "games" to pure "interactive novels". I myself confess that it's very convenient that I can't lose and it perfectly fits the mood of Myst for example, but in the case of a detective novel, where you really go to dangerous places, I still think it had its point to bring actually at least some danger in.

In closing I don't (and will never) argue with people who are impaired, they should have this option present in "accessibility" tab for sure. But if you take the danger out of the developer's hand entirely, all games will turn into "relaxing" experience which in my opinion (at least in case of this last scene) wasn't.

Just my 2 cents.

I disagree that everyone considers tension desirable.


My experience was the complete opposite. It was at least two minutes before I realized the Gribbler couldn't kill April, so I was playing the game as if it could. It wasn't until I inevitably messed up and it caught up to April (without throwing me out of the game with a "game over" or "try again, loser") that I realized it couldn't actually hurt April... and I was delightfully surprised. I continued trying to avoid the Gribbler for the rest of the sequence, but it was nice to know that if the phone rang or someone came to the door, that I could leave the game without fumbling around looking for a pause button or something (not that every game even has a pause button during chase sequences).


I hope you won't argue with people who complain that such things destroy the mood of the game for them either.


The Carol Reed games aren't "all games." No one plays something like Bioshock in order to be relaxed. And someone who wants excitement probably won't be playing Carol Reed (except possibly as a break from more stressful games).

I of course don't disagree with the fact that for some it can break the mood. That's why I'd too opt for possibility to turn this off in game options or add some cheat-skip.

isn't my idea of the relaxing weekend at all.

Anyway, in East Side Story, there was a timed sequence (if I recall it right) as well. I died there myself too. Was anyone bothered by that one as well?

I personally think this game has come in for far too much flak for a very mild 'timed' sequence which can be overcome by knowing exactly where to click - okay you may need guidance to do that or possibly a saved game in extreme cases.

I personally think that game developers should make the games that they want & include what they want. I do not think it is their job to cater for disabilites but perhaps ideally there should be methods in place from other agencies to overcome difficulties as there are with other forms of media e.g. books in large print, audio tape etc

Before you think of me as a cruel heartless woman, I devote my working life (& many hours of unpaid overtime)helping people with a multitude of disabilites, mainly intellectual but include sight, hearing & mobility problems to access normal activities & places of interest. I would prefer to find ways of access for the more disabled, however difficult, to open up more interesting and/or exciting opportunities for them rather than 'dumbing down' the activities to the easy & repetitive.

I read with interest the other thread about accessibility of games - I would like to see more gadgets available & perhaps some kind of 'universal' programme that can slow games down.

What I don't want to see is games being produced 'to order'. I've played a few games which have a hint of that & I far prefer a game where it is obvious the developer has gone his own way!

Since when does providing the option to exclude timed sequences during installation (or eliminating them entirely) have anything to do with "dumbing anything down?" Doesn't the game already have a hint system for those who can't manage the "intellectual" side? Why would adding the option to avoid timed sequences for those who can't manage the "physical" side (or think timed sequences spoil the mood) make it "dumber?"

You say you don't want games being produced "to order," but look at all the complaints when a game isn't point-and-click. Look at the complaints action-oriented games get when they don't allow the gamer to remap the keyboard. There's a difference between allowing customizations that enhance the individual gamer's experience and dictating every aspect of the game.

Hi Jenny100, I was referring to games in general rather than specifically about Colour of Murder which in my mind has been unfairly 'picked on', despite the inclusion of a hint system, because of a simple 'timed' feature the developer chose to include. No!, I don't regard the inclusion of a hint system or a bypass feature for timed puzzles as 'dumbing down', but even the inclusion of both these features would not make the game accessible to people I deal with. That is more what I'm trying to get across probably quite badly - it's nice if developers think about accessibility when creating their games but it is impossible to cater for everyone & I don't think that responsibility should be either expected or foisted upon them! There has to be other ways!

Any adventure games that have been released have received comments that are not favorable.

Please correct me, isn't this the only thread here about the timed sequence?
And how many of the comments stated are unfavorable?

I don't think that it has been "picked on".

Commentaries about games are normal.

I really enjoyed playing the game Mikael. I didnt realize the ending was timed til I read this thread. Thank you for a beautiful and fun game to play. I hope you will make some more. I think this game is the best one so far of the series.

Isnt this bit like making the mountain out of the mole hil ?

yes there are some very hard action puzzls at the end of some games.I remeber several including sanatorium.and for those a skip over shuold have been included.

But the one in tcom is so easy its not realy a timed puzzle atall.It is *so* easy that many players didnt even realise that it a timed puzzle at all.

and reely *tons* of time to do those very littl actions.thee only people who cant do that very easily with plenty time to spare are them with very severe handicaps like mentioned above, but you cant make universal games just for them even if thts cruel sounding.

Also if you fail 2 or 3 time just to work out hat to do, so what?
you get taken back strait to the very beinning of the puzzle again,not like several games were you have to go thruogh a whole very long rimaroll every time you must start again before you get to the actual puzzle again -like in broken sword 3

I agree with Marita on this one - those comments (even if unfavorable) are vital as a feedback for independent developers. The idea of making some elements turnable on/off in game options is really good and this should be a bottom line of this thread. While people who don't mind a tiny bit of action will leave this option turned off, there is a choice for those who do mind.

We independent developers struggle for every non-pirated copy of our games and this really means making the best service for the players who choose us instead of the big boys. While I would never sacrifice the artistic / story vision, the controls and such are entirely different story. And I think that the feedback is extremely valuable (at least for me).

I did the timed ending 2nd go, no probs. Got into a panic the first time.
Loved the game, thanks Mikael.

Lindamarion -- just in case, I've put the description of how to do the timed puzzle in a spoiler tag.

I agree that is very true MaG & as a result, as I understand, we will never see a follow up to Keepsake - I think the developers have gone on to make action games? I think we have got to look after our AG developers & make sure that our 'moans' aren't seen to dominate our views on a game that many of us have overall enjoyed.


It does seem, MaG, to be the only thread here about the timed sequence & on balance most of the posts have been favorable although it's just an unfortunate human thing that the unfavourable ones always stand out!


I find this difficult for two reasons although the majority of comments aren't negative - the first one is that there are a lot of posts about a minor timed sequence & yes! I'm just as guilty as anyone else for 'inflating' it! The second reason is that there are other games out there that have timed sequences not made by Indies where maybe comments made on this site will surely be missed by the developers. HER INTERACTIVE springs to mind & incorporating the subject of disability - many people who subscribe to Gameboomers are of a more mature age range than e.g. the Nancy Drew games are aimed at. They are full of challenging puzzles to the normal player let alone anyone disabled. The sad fact is that there are many 'children' in the target age range with the intellectual skills but with a variety of disabilites that would make playing most of the 19? games produced impossible! HER INTERACTIVE are a far bigger concern than MDNA Games but they have not come up with any bypass features yet! No-one seems to be mentioning that so yes, I still do feel that Mikaels game has been 'picked on'. Having said that & after reading Metamorphiums's posts & others maybe for the better!


I think a lot of interesting things have come out of the whole thread.

Metamorphium, it's nice that you pay attention to comments & glad to hear that you wouldn't compromise your ideas. Can you tell me: how easy is it to incorporate bypass features for a timed puzzle if you are on a limited budget? Also, if you wanted to include say a sound/musical or colour matching etc puzzle - how easy would it be to incorporate in the start menu an alternative 'clue' for them?

I don't believe that. If Keepsake had sold as well as the developer had hoped, they'd have continued to make adventure games, despite anything anyone said in this forum or any other. In fact, Keepsake was a lot better received by Gameboomers than in some other forums, where it was positively reamed for bad voice acting. If it had sold as well as TLJ, or as well as the average action or RPG game, I'm sure we'd be seeing more games from the developer.


Why would people mention that in this thread? People have certainly complained about the timed sequences in the Nancy Drew games in more than one thread in the past, even so far as saying they wouldn't buy any more of them. No one here has said they wouldn't buy Carol Reed because of the timed sequence at the end of this particular installment. Only that they thought the game would be better without it or with a bypass.


I applaud your attitude. It's one of the reasons I sometimes consider exclusively buying independently produced adventure games. I know I can get customer support if I have a problem.


I wouldn't want you, or any game developer to sacrifice the artistic/story side. I'm happy to say that Ghost in the Sheet was one of my favorite games this year and I look forward to your next game.

Jenny100, Re my first quote: I can't remember what game developer(s) made a very good game but got so many negative comments just gave up & have gone on to making action games - as mentioned earlier - it doesn't matter how many good things that are said it's the bad ones that stick in the mind! The developers of Keepsake came to mind but I didn't know for sure.
Re my second 'quote': it's out of context with what I was trying to say overall!

Thanx Beckie I was thinking of making it a spoiler tags myself but thuoght it was not nececcery.

I admire you very much jeny100 and i hope i wont offend yu. But i cant under stand at all the mention or importantce of time puzzles in this tcom puzzle.and also in nickie review

i too dislike time or action puzzles especially hard ones, and in many games they leasve me terrible anoyed and frustrated.But the copor of murder one is an abslute breeze
Also the time-action puzzle in Mikaels previous game east side story there was a very much more hard timed action puzzle near the end, than the 1 in color of muder but i don't remember any criticism in reviews or posts, mabe I forgot?"

just the finding of locations and items are much more dificult and caused me very much more tensions and frustration.and you can see that in many call for help on gb hints here specially in the theater workshop and industial area.

It's quite easy - it's a design choice. In GitS ( for your information the budget was $0 and we made it - two people in our free time, so the budget is not a factor here) - I've included the option to skip the arcade minigames and the sound puzzle ex-post mainly because of the reaction of Marita (and I can't thank her enough for that suggestion. ). When you build and finetune your game you also by the process of testing get totally proficient in it, which means that you do stuff thousand times faster than other gamers, just because you trained it for millions of times. It's vital to have a pair of fresh eyes and hands for some independent view.

I think that if anyone told Mikael the sequence is unplayable, he would consider putting in an optional-skip. But I think most of the testers never realized it's a time sequence (I deliberately don't mention the first version which was almost unplayable even for me. :D)

I personally find Mikael as one of those who really listens to his gamers and he's one of the finest game developers I've had the chance to meet, so I don't think there was any ill-intention in putting this sequence in. I am glad he got such a nice review for Colour of Murder here on GB, because he definitely deserves it for this very-well told story.

So come on Mikael - give us new Carol Reed game already!

Here's the GameBoomers' review commentary on the timed puzzle in East Side Story:

There was talk of a bypass for puzzles in Nikopol before the game was released. But the developers then made the decision not to include a by-pass -- here was the response in the GameBoomers' review:

There seems to be a concern on the part of developers that if they allow a bypass (or too many bypasses) that the gamers will use the bypasses to whizz through the game, and then complain that the game is too short! Or that the game is "more of an interactive movie, with insufficient gameplay." I think receiving gamer complains like this is entirely possible. Still, I think more people overall would be happy with a bypass -- just my humble opinion.

Chrissie -- for evidence of how much gamers struggle with timed puzzles, all you have to do is look in the Hints forum to see people requesting saved games for all kinds of timed challenges (including those from the Nancy Drew games) because they can't get by a certain section. That's a pretty clumsy way to have to bypass the puzzle, but it's what's sometimes necessary before people can progress in a game.

Becky-thanx for the correct and acurate info

I agree that more people would be happy with a bypass & I also think that the feature would sell more games - I've lost count of the time I've read posts from members here stating they would not be buying a certain game because of timed and/or arcade sequences.

There maybe some games that would be substantially shortened & lose their 'essence' by having a bypass feature where these elements are an essential part of the game & well integrated - one or two of the Nancy Drew games spring to mind & possibly Nikopol from what I've read??? (I haven't played it yet!) But for the most part I just can't think of any others that would be that much shortened.

I think many AGs in general are accused of being 'interactive movies with insufficient gameplay' anyway - usually, from what I can gather, players that are getting more out of other genres! As for them ending up like that if you introduce bypass features - I find the reviewers here on GB quite astute!



I frequently look at the hints forum as I'm always interested to see where people have got stuck on games that I've played. If there's a timed puzzle involved I'm never surprised to see so many requests for save games! When there is no other alternative I think GB does a wonderful job & I have been tempted many times (especially for Nancy Drews!) to ask for more saves than just the one I ever requested. The reason I have usually resisted is that there are slight variations in the order of gameplay so you get a save which is someone elses order of play - so I end up just battling away & making the air blue but would gladly use a bypass feature if available!

For a strict linear game I think saves are okay but agree that it is clumsy solution as I've also seen that it's difficult & frustrating for some players requesting them to work out what to do with them when they get them! Now that Metamorphium (thank you Metamorphium! ) has clarified how easy it is to incorporate a bypass I wish more developers would think about it as it just seems to be such a good compromise if they want to include timed/arcade sequences & keep their market as large as possible bearing in mind that it includes many elderly with sensory and/or mobility problems.

I've got a feeling now that if Mikael wants to add a timed sequence in his next game there will be without a doubt a bypass feature!

I have seen a very lot of requests for hints and help to color of murder but not single one of them is for help on that easiest of puuzzls ever at the very end-Iris at the door

i realy cant under stand why this particuler puzzle which every single person can over come easily if not first time then second or third time causes so much coment.Its not at all similar to the hard 'proper' timed action puzlles in so many other games-to many to list here but i can if anybody wants

The company which distribute the game Merscom are very very extreme pedantic about insisting there games which are being translated into many other languiges are free from nasty things or difficutys and Im sure would have objected strongly if thought hard on elderly players--also bigfish.

Honestly, if the game is as good as you say why do you feel the need to sell it? This is really starting to just sound like a sales pitch. Let it go already please.

For me, it's mostly an issue of CHANGE... I don't like it. I do like this series the way it is; for its seeming spartan simplicity combined with a complex, well-thought-out storyline. I get bored when something has been 'dumbed' down, and despite difficulties in solving, I'm drawn to and held by a challenge. So when there was mention of a timed challenge, I was more effected by any changes from the norm, rather than having to dash around in the endgame sequence.

I remember when I played Zork: Nemesis almost 10 years ago, I had to do a timed puzzle as well. The puzzle made perfect sense at that moment in the game. The same does the small timed puzzle in Nikopol - at least the timed puzzle in the demo did.

Timed puzzles that makes no sense in the game at all - I don't like.

Generally, though, many games have a tough last puzzle in them, I agree. Compared to say RPGs, a tough (timed) puzzle could be seen as the AG's (adventure games) equivalent to the tough boss battles in RPGs. I just hope any timed puzzles do not require the slight of hand, since my dexterity is not that great...

For timed puzzles in general, I think it would be a great to let the player choose the autosolve option say after the player has failed the puzzle 3 times or so. So Blonde had mini-games in them; you could just hit the autosolve button and then you could get on with the story...

First of all, I don't think that my game has been unnecessarily "picked on". The only one that should be hurt by criticism due to the timed scene is me, and I'm not, so let's leave it at that.

I generally don't like timed puzzles either. Most of the time, they are designed to make the game more difficult. These are not the kind of puzzles I personally like to solve, and I think that goes for most adventure game players as well. I'm also very bad at timed puzzles. There are lots of games I haven't been able to finish due to timed elements.

However, the timed scene in The Colour of Murder is not supposed to be challenging to the player. I didn't even think of it as a puzzle. My reason for implementing the timed element is that I didn't like the idea of the player being able to simply leave the game running without anything happening at all. If the scene isn't completed in time, the player does not die, and does not have to load a saved game. Neither is the scene more difficult to complete for people with sight, hearing, or cognitive issues.

I'm glad to see that several posters in this thread didn't even realize that the scene had a time limit, since that is part of the whole idea.

I can not say whether it was right or wrong to design the scene the way it is. I do, however, listen very carefully and take serious note of comments like these from players.

From the one who started this whole idiotic discussion, I humbly apologize. I loved the game and all the Carol Reed games and the posting here was in a moment of frustration. I am so sorry to have whined here about so small a matter. The timed puzzle was correct for the game as far as I am concerned and as long as they stay relatively easy, I won't complain again.

Again, I am sorry to have started this discussion.

Sarah, you have nothing to be sorry about. The fact that a mountain grew out of a mole hill was not your doing.

Ana

sarahandus, I wasn't going to post another thing on this thread as I feel I've said too much already! I feel so awful now reading your post as it is not you that should be apologising, you have every right to air your complaints, so I know that I'm one person that should be apologising to you.

I'm sorry - there was no intention on my part to be hurtful to anyone not least of all you.

seems theres agreeement Mikal

it would be very good if dificult slider and timed puzzls should have by passes.
ultra easy ones like the 1 at end of Tcom is no need cos there easier than all other ordinary puzles

You mean I can come out of the corner now?

Thanks all~

To me, discussion is good and great Communication are what it is all about. If or when a topic get many responses, it is because the topic or question is a good one, not because the commenters are angry or anything like that...

I'm just glad Mikael is listening...