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#120391 - 04/16/06 03:11 PM A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Douglas Bregger Offline
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Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 163
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
OK, the idea behind click and save games is you've got to switch around objects with characters in order to get to the next part of them game, right? Well, I think it sometimes gets a little ridiculous!
Take Longest Journey. There's a section where April has to get to the old theatre to see Cortez. But no one's at the box office. So she has to get the garage entrance open. Then she has to create a diversion so that the stupid son of the owners keeps the back entrance to the theatre open, and she can walk in.
Come on! Why didn't they just have someone at the box office. Then she'd use her card and get in to the theatre. Or else, she could have done some other activities, then gone back to the theatre later in the game!
Any of you have thoughts on this subject?

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#120392 - 04/16/06 03:21 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
niteowl07 Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 7568
Loc: the dusty desert
i hated the whole game - that's why i'll trade it.the death point for me wasn't trying to get into the theater ,but how she got rid of the detective...

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#120393 - 04/16/06 03:28 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
SkeeterUK Offline
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Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 1393
Loc: United Kingdom
Whats wrong with the theatre section of the game, it was good. Better and more entertaining that just walking in straight away. Little challenges like this is what makes adventure games so fun. For the majority anyhow.

Btw @ Niteowl07, you a niteowl with alan on metro radio. smile I used to be one too awhile ago. smile

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#120394 - 04/16/06 03:31 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23717
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Douglas smile

If you are expecting that the majority of adventure games be logical then you will be sorely disappointed wink

Some of the "Classics" from the glory days of adventure games had the most illogical puzzles known to man thumbsup

Cheers and wave
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#120395 - 04/16/06 03:31 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
texaslady Offline
The Mischievous Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 06/02/04
Posts: 27907
Loc: Texas
Isn't it amazing how people will love a game, hate it or just not care one way or the other?
I liked the game a lot......loved finding a use for Guy. I didn't mind all of the conversation or being side tracked by clues. When I played the game, I'd never even seen a walkthrough or heard of gaming forums and to be honest, I didn't know I could die in a game. I simply enjoyed poking around and borrowing things when I could.
It was a learning experience for me and hopefully I'll remember what I did learn.

Sue
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#120396 - 04/16/06 03:42 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
maggie57 Offline
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Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 4633
Loc: Arizona, U.S.A.
I really love The Longest Journey, in fact I have it on my computer again to play and am expecting Dreamfall, which actually is The Longest Journey 2 and I should get it in just a few days. I think a few people just don't have the patience for these games, me I love them. Sorry Douglas. Have a Happy Easter.

Maggie bravo bravo bravo

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#120397 - 04/16/06 04:08 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Jenny100 Online   content
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Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35627
Loc: southeast USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Douglas Bregger:
Come on! Why didn't they just have someone at the box office. Then she'd use her card and get in to the theatre.
It's what's known as a puzzle. If you don't like them, you're playing the wrong kind of game. The puzzle you described is pretty typical for 3rd person adventure games. You need to get in somewhere. You're blocked from getting in by the normal routes. So you have to be creative and find some other solution, often doing things you'd never do in real life. Success is often rewarded by an amusing cut scene.

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#120398 - 04/16/06 04:30 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
BillyBob Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 7858
Loc: North Florida
Sometimes I like'em that way and sometimes I don't. Guess it depends on the mood I'M in. Lately I've been in the "don't" category. duh

The first puzzle I remember that was really illogical to me was after getting into the Clock Tower in MYST (my first game) and having to pull the chains to get a certain number to come up. I was stuck for a week on that one and even charted out all the possible combinations before I discovered, by accident, why logic didn't work. I think it prepared me for illogical puzzles in future games. evil laugh
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#120399 - 04/16/06 04:46 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Melanie1 Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 5041
Loc: Bay Area, CA
I like that kind of puzzle as long as it can be logically solved. I don't like puzzles that make me revisit the same places I've been to 10 times already because the solution is so obscure. That's one of the reasons I prefer 3rd person. I loved TLJ and thought the puzzles were fair.

Melanie wave
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#120400 - 04/16/06 05:20 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Jenny100 Online   content
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
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Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35627
Loc: southeast USA
Quote:
Originally posted by BillyBob:
The first puzzle I remember that was really illogical to me was after getting into the Clock Tower in MYST (my first game) and having to pull the chains to get a certain number to come up. I was stuck for a week on that one and even charted out all the possible combinations before I discovered, by accident, why logic didn't work.
I don't remember that particular puzzle as being illogical. You know the number you're shooting for. You experiment with the machine to see how it operates to get different numbers to come up. You observe what you do to get one number to change, to get two numbers to change, etc. Where wasn't it logical?

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#120401 - 04/16/06 05:34 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
niteowl07 Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 7568
Loc: the dusty desert
my only objection to the game was not enough puzzles - it was like the cut-scenes controlled everything as far as moving on.i never never ever would have thought of the detective thing - i had to use the walkthrough and remembered thinking "my sense of humor just left ". and it is odd how everyone likes different things- i play to try and sharpen my mind by thinking in different ways - i thought the theater part was really fun - kinda like coming home from college with no key, unexpectedly , and no one home !

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#120402 - 04/16/06 07:11 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
sierramindy Offline
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Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 1853
Loc: Rockford, Illinois
Okay, I liked the game, but that doesn't mean I have to like every puzzle in the game. I remember that box office only too well. I thought that was the way to go since I had the card. I figured there was just something I had to do first before the box office would open. Sometimes just walking out of a scene and into another scene or two and then walking back will move things along and the box office would be open. Or maybe I had to do something else that would trigger the opening of that box office. Finally the thing I personally had to do, was go to the walkthrough! Once I was pushed away from box-office-thinking, I was able to figure out the hat trick for the shadow and some of the rest. I think the box office was there to deliberately trap one! Is that fair? Oh sure, in adventure games it is, I reckon. Anyway, I can certainly empathize with Doug's frustration over that puzzle. I'm sure everybody has felt exactly that same way over different puzzles in different games. Be honest, haven't you?
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#120403 - 04/16/06 07:23 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
colpet Online   content
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Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 1820
Loc: Orillia, Ontario, Canada
I'm not a fan of those types of puzzles either, in particular when they get really complex - need key from guy who needs water. To get water need to talk to girl who shows you a well, but now you need a bucket, etc..
It's not even a matter of lateral thinking, because those types of puzzles can be fun. If I knew that I had exhausted all the conversations, and found all the items I need, then I could apply myself to come up with a solution, however goofy it may sound. The problem is that you never really know if you've got every bit of information, and often you try to solve the puzzle without a vital clue. I tend to use hints and WTs in these situations, to avoid the frustration of resorting to try all items on everyone and everything and to ease the boredom of having to retrace your steps multiple times.
Some games do make it easier by refusing progression until all the tasks are done. Then you know for sure that you missed something.
I much prefer puzzles other than the inventory/dialogue kind.
I played TLJ early on in my gaming career, and managed very little of it without hints. I'd probably do better now, but knowing my preferences, I wouldn't be as likely to buy it now.

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#120404 - 04/16/06 07:28 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
friedmonky Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 10663
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:
Originally posted by Jenny100:
Quote:
Originally posted by Douglas Bregger:
[b] Come on! Why didn't they just have someone at the box office. Then she'd use her card and get in to the theatre.
It's what's known as a puzzle. If you don't like them, you're playing the wrong kind of game. The puzzle you described is pretty typical for 3rd person adventure games. You need to get in somewhere. You're blocked from getting in by the normal routes. So you have to be creative and find some other solution, often doing things you'd never do in real life. Success is often rewarded by an amusing cut scene. [/b]
Exactly! thumbsup

Rusty smile
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#120405 - 04/16/06 07:28 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Darleen03 Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 12/13/03
Posts: 14830
Loc: Northeast NJ
OMG.................Douglas Bregger


That Game I thought was the BEST lol

Have some patience Also


Darleen
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#120406 - 04/16/06 07:36 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
niteowl07 Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 7568
Loc: the dusty desert
see ? everyone's taste is different ! and so are the puzzles we like - runaway was a good one for off the wall stuff ,yet i played it almost non - stop. tlj was a chore for me to finish - maybe it depends on where our "heads" are when we are playing a game ?? agree about patience for sure !

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#120407 - 04/16/06 08:20 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Douglas Bregger Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 163
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
Hey, don't get me wrong. I loved TLJ! I just felt that the theatre section was a bit silly, that's all.

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#120408 - 04/16/06 08:31 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Jenny Offline
Grande Olde Dame
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 31223
Loc: Northwestern New Mexico, USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Mad:
Some of the "Classics" from the glory days of adventure games had the most illogical puzzles known to man lol Mad wave
One of my most favorite, Mad, was in Tony Tough where you had to freeze a worm to use in a keyhole so the door would open... rotfl
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#120409 - 04/16/06 09:16 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
JohnBoy Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 05/04/02
Posts: 7746
Loc: Kentwood, Left my heart in New...
TLJ=One of the best games ever.
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#120410 - 04/16/06 11:07 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
niteowl07 Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 11/06/05
Posts: 7568
Loc: the dusty desert
you're right ,jenny - how could i forget the worm !! rotfl

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#120411 - 04/16/06 11:15 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23717
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi Jenny smile

A good example !! wave
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#120412 - 04/16/06 11:17 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
MysteryFantic Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 512
Loc: Delaware
That is why call them Adventure Games they want you to have challenges to complete puzzles, and make you think what can I do next to get this to level of the game. I have played some time sequences puzzles that would drive any sane person up the wall and had a couple puzzles that I have played for days before I got it. Then think of all the stupid things I tried to get it right. And when it works it is such a pleasure. It they where too easy your game time would be short. Besides I think writers love to challenge players to see what they can do to make us really go crazy.

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#120413 - 04/17/06 12:50 AM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Gilligan Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/12/06
Posts: 3164
Loc: INA
Huh??...Puzzle is something really fun,TLJ is good game..try t'be more patience t' solving any puzzle, I like any puzzle in any adventure games,that's what we find inside adventure game,is part of the game, I love t'try solve the prolems 'till my brain melted...(it's melt already,real stuck, I contact game hints forum..hehehe)

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#120414 - 04/17/06 01:52 AM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Melanie1 Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 5041
Loc: Bay Area, CA
I'm playing one of those frustrating games now, Scratches. Absolutely nothing that should work to solve the puzzles seems to. I like the puzzles that you have to do a million things to solve them better than the puzzles where you don't even get a clue as to what to do next. I guess it's one of the reasons I like third person games. Wamdering around the same place endlessly in silence is not for me.

I always felt like a solution would come to me in TLJ or in Runaway for that matter, but this game reminds me of the myst games only with a smaller territory to cover. I could use a game mate on this one. lol

Melanie
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#120415 - 04/17/06 05:15 AM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Kaki's Sister Offline
Graduate Boomer

Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 17632
Loc: Marlborough USA
I just love playing pc games. Even the frustrating ones have redeeming qualities because they are a challange and they are a new experience.
The object of any game for me is the pleasure and fun of taking me into a fanatsy or magical or spooky environment that challanges my mind and spirit! I do it to have fun and be entertained! wave smile smile wave
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#120416 - 04/17/06 09:22 AM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
BillyBob Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 7858
Loc: North Florida
Quote:
Originally posted by Jenny100:

I don't remember that particular puzzle as being illogical. You know the number you're shooting for. You experiment with the machine to see how it operates to get different numbers to come up. You observe what you do to get one number to change, to get two numbers to change, etc. Where wasn't it logical?
Remember, this was my first game and each time you pulled one chain and let go the numbers shifted by one so I expected the second chain to finish accessing the correct numbers the same way. When you pulled the second chain they did the same thing and it was impossible to get the proper set of numbers to come up; you had to pull and hold the second chain till the right numbers appeared. That might have seemed logical to some but it didn't to me at the time. laugh
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#120417 - 04/17/06 09:30 AM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
raylinstephens Offline
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Registered: 08/15/02
Posts: 2932
Loc: Sumrall, MS
QUOTE]One of my most favorite, Mad, was in Tony Tough where you had to freeze a worm to use in a keyhole so the door would open... rotfl [/QB][/QUOTE]

Deja vu! There was a puzzle like that in Xanth!

Linda rotfl
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#120418 - 04/17/06 09:39 AM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26894
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
This is a fun discussion, but it's getting specific about the solution to puzzles in some games, so I've added a "Possible Spoiler" warning to the title of the thread. smile

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#120419 - 04/17/06 11:09 AM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
The Haze Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 02/12/06
Posts: 799
Loc: SE Michigan
It seems to me that the "Complaint about adventure games" is actually the advantage of them. If you're looking for lightweight fun there are games like The Cameron Files available. If you have masochistic tendencies (As do most gamers at times) there are plenty of really difficult games to play. They can be happy, sad, realistic, or fantasy. I've often felt that the ability to find a game which matches your mood or intention is the reason adults play them.
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#120420 - 04/17/06 07:57 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
sierramindy Offline
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Registered: 04/03/06
Posts: 1853
Loc: Rockford, Illinois
Why do I get the feeling that honesty is being mislaid here? Like I have lots of patience, but sometimes it just runs out. I admit it! That's when a walkthrough can be a lifesaver. Some puzzles are hard to do even following a walkthrough. There was one puzzle that worked like Rubic's Cube (I think it was in NiBiRu) and following the walkthrough was really hard work. I did manage it in the end, but I surely could have done without it. The game itself was not the greatest, but it was okay and I was able to finish it, always a plus!
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#120421 - 04/17/06 08:07 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Douglas Bregger Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 163
Loc: Silver Spring, MD
What if they extended that scene in the theatre? When poor April finally gets in and sees Cortez--he's asleep! So next, she's got to hunt around the city for an object that will wake him up. Meanwhile, the stupid son of the theatre owners is still doing the monkey dance in the garage!
Hey, I'm not saying I want games to be simple. I just feel that the puzzles get a bit ridiculous, that's all.

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#120422 - 04/17/06 08:19 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
topcat Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 08/08/05
Posts: 169
Loc: ND
I liked scratches but thought ending could have been better

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#120423 - 04/17/06 09:35 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Melanie1 Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 01/11/04
Posts: 5041
Loc: Bay Area, CA
I'm not at the ending of scratches yet so don't know if I'm going to wind up really liking it in spite of the slow frustrating beginning or not. There are a lot of things in it that I really like a lot.

I just think that some games make the solutions too obscure and if it's too frustrating it can take away the fun because it distracts you from the story. I'm hoping this one doesn't turn out that way but too soon to tell. Running around doing a bunch of silly chores to move on, can sometimes be fun because of the side quests though.

I also play to have fun and unwind and get into the story. I love a good story that wraps me up in it and flows seamlessly. I find that the mood fitting the game is very important too though and something that really bores me today, may be just what I want tomorrow. smile I get masochistic in regards to finishing a puzzle because I'm too stubborn to let it beat me but not as far as an entire game goes. I've learned ot just quit it and play something else if not having fun.

Melanie wave
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#120424 - 04/17/06 09:43 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
maggie57 Offline
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Registered: 07/13/04
Posts: 4633
Loc: Arizona, U.S.A.
Douglas- laugh

I have played the game several times and love it each time. There will be parts to every game (almost) that some of us would like changed. But I think why TLJ is a favorite of so many of us is because of the way it was all made. Have you tried Broken Mirror, now that is also a good one with great puzzles.

Take care

Maggie happydance bravo bravo

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#120425 - 04/17/06 10:10 PM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Jenny Offline
Grande Olde Dame
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 12/04/99
Posts: 31223
Loc: Northwestern New Mexico, USA
I think part of what we're seeing is just different people liking different sorts of puzzles. For instance, a lot of people like what I call "logical, scientific" puzzles--like Schizm, for instance. I prefer the "inventory" based puzzles, and those are the ones where you often get these whacky solutions. To which I say "more, more, more"... rotfl
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#120427 - 04/18/06 07:23 AM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
The Haze Offline
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Registered: 02/12/06
Posts: 799
Loc: SE Michigan
While I have long been a fan of the MYST games, one in particular exemplifies the type of game I really dislike. The spider chair in MYST IV is simply a lousy device. I eventually read all the material; contemplated the situation; and figured out precisely what to do. (That's what gamers do and I loved that part.) The problem was that once I know what to do, I still couldn't do it! It seemed to take forever and ruined much of the game for me. I even broke down and checked a walkthrough; discovered my solution was correct; and it still took forever. There are a few puzzles where you are irritated after you figure them out. That seems wrong.
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#120428 - 04/18/06 09:12 AM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
zookeeper Offline
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Registered: 04/15/06
Posts: 2209
Loc: G.H. WA
My favorite games in the many, many, many, that I've played are my first 3...The Dig, Shivers, and Myst. I played them before there were online walkthroughs so I was pretty much on my own. I did get stuck at one point in The Dig where I had to go to Best Buy and look it up in the Strategy Guide. That was before they sealed them in plastic wrap. It was a completely illogical puzzle as far as I could tell. Even after consulting the guide, I couldn't figure out how the developers arrived at that solution.

My point though, as frustrating as they were at times, theres nothing like figuring it out on your own. And I think that's one of the reasons these three games my all time favorites.
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#120429 - 04/18/06 11:47 AM Re: A Complaint About Adventure Games -- Possible Spoilers Within
Jenny100 Online   content
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35627
Loc: southeast USA
Quote:
Originally posted by The Haze:
While I have long been a fan of the MYST games, one in particular exemplifies the type of game I really dislike. The spider chair in MYST IV is simply a lousy device. I eventually read all the material; contemplated the situation; and figured out precisely what to do. (That's what gamers do and I loved that part.) The problem was that once I know what to do, I still couldn't do it!
That's one of the problems I had with Myst IV. There were two other puzzles with similar dexterity requirements. None of the previous Myst games required any dexterity. But remember Myst IV wasn't made by Cyan.

Quote:
Originally posted by BillyBob:
Remember, this was my first game and each time you pulled one chain and let go the numbers shifted by one so I expected the second chain to finish accessing the correct numbers the same way. ...you had to [b]pull and hold the second chain till the right numbers appeared. That might have seemed logical to some but it didn't to me at the time. [/b]
OK, now I see what you're saying. That kind of thing is hardly unique to Myst or Mystlike games though. It's more about not understanding every aspect of the interface than about the puzzle itself. It's like missing things in Black Mirror because you didn't right-click something. And as much as Pandora Directive is a good game, the interface tripped me up a lot - kind of like having two inventories. And there are several games where you have to click-and-drag instead of clicking on something. The interface can be a puzzle in itself.

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