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#885000 - 05/02/13 05:12 AM Slide-Show Format
Antoinetta Offline
Shy Boomer

Registered: 04/23/13
Posts: 26
Loc: San Francisco, Czl
One question has vexed me for some time, and I would appreciate the insight that any Boomers might have.

Simply, why does any game developer of a first-person game ever use the 90 degree slide show format anymore. Clunky and disorienting, it may have wowed us all when Myst came out in '93, but now?

I just replayed Amerzone and the first two Draculas, made in 1999 and 2000. These games all had a user-friendly 360 panning interface, so this is not new technology.

So why was the slide-show format regrettably not consigned to the dust-bin of gaming history from the time Amerzone hit the store shelves. (Out of curiosity, does anyone know which game was the first to use 360 degree panning?)

Yet people are still sticking with it almost fifteen years later. The Nancy Drews still use it, and I read that the upcoming Bracken Tor games will also.

I'll get the Braken Tor games when (and if) they come out, and I know I'll enjoy them, as I did Barrow Hill but the fly in the ointment will still be that the playing experience was unnecessarily detracted from by the use of an obsolete and klutzy interface.

And of course one wonder why, when a clearly superior alternative has existed for almost fifteen years.

Antoinetta


Edited by Antoinetta (05/02/13 05:13 AM)

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#885005 - 05/02/13 05:46 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
Kaki's Sister Offline
Graduate Boomer

Registered: 11/21/04
Posts: 17598
Loc: Marlborough USA
Antoinetta when I get immersed in a game I don't always notice if its a "slide" show. But I do prefer "panning".
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#885057 - 05/02/13 10:29 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
BrownEyedTigre Online   happy
The Sassy Global Moderator PR Liaison
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 01/04/04
Posts: 65742
Loc: In the Naughty Corner
I prefer it to not have 360 panning because it tends to make me seasick so I am glad they are still making them that way. I see nothing archaic about it, I just see them as being different.
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#885126 - 05/02/13 04:07 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
oldman Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 04/15/00
Posts: 3472
Loc: Lost in the Arizona Desert
Different strokes and all that but as for me, if a game has the slide show system then it ruins it for me and I no longer buy any games that do.

I prefer my games with the panning because I like to feel like I am moving in a game. Of course, my preference is 3d person basically for just that reason.
_________________________
You laugh because I'm different
I laugh because you're all the same

Funny I don't remember being absent minded.

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#885192 - 05/02/13 10:21 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35618
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: BrownEyedTigre
I prefer it to not have 360 panning because it tends to make me seasick so I am glad they are still making them that way. I see nothing archaic about it, I just see them as being different.

I never used to have a problem with panning games. But now when I have the least bit of queasiness (either from something I ate, or just from being too tired), playing a game with panning will magnify the queasiness to the point where I'll have to lie down to keep from throwing up. So I'm very glad there are still some first person games that allow me to play them when I'm not feeling 100% -- which is really when I need games the most because I can't do much of anything else.

Scratches gave the player a choice of panning or still screens, which was nice. Unfortunately it's also rare.

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#885221 - 05/03/13 03:27 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Jenny100]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23690
Loc: United Kingdom
I think the more options we find developers still feel able to offer us - the better !! yes
_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#885370 - 05/03/13 04:16 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: oldman]
lanlynk Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 321
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: oldman
I prefer my games with the panning because I like to feel like I am moving in a game. Of course, my preference is 3d person basically for just that reason.

I agree with you, oldman. The slide-show style feels unnatural to me. I don't want to click and move half way up the road. I find myself clicking back a lot to make sure I didn't miss something. Much rather see my little avatar run up that road, searching everywhere! I'm a scenery gazer in games too. I'll stop and just pan around to enjoy the graphics!

That said, I have gotten nauseous in some free-swinging 360 games. When that happens, I try to find some way to slow the mouse speed or make the movement not so sensitive.
_________________________
"Dragons were never gone. They were just invisible and very, very quiet." ~ M'aiq the Liar (Skyrim)

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#885388 - 05/03/13 06:35 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: lanlynk]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35618
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: lanlynk
The slide-show style feels unnatural to me.

But ironically, it's probably the "unnatural" aspects of panning movement (also 3D movement) that cause seasickness.

There's nothing wrong with preferring a panning style -- I used to prefer it myself before I started to have problems with panning. But I don't think snapshot/slideshow is unnatural when it actually mimics how I look at things. In real life, when I move my eyes or turn my head to look at something, I do not carefully peruse every inch of viewing space between what I'm looking at before and what I'm looking at after. I'm interested in the endpoints, not the in-between. And generally I blink my eyes when I turn my head to look in a completely different direction. It's not that different from going to a different screen in a snapshot-style game.

Quote:
I don't want to click and move half way up the road. I find myself clicking back a lot to make sure I didn't miss something.

I don't like that either, but it's not something that's exclusive to snapshot style games. It can happen with any node-based game. Cameron Files 2, which had panning, was one of the worst for it. One click would take me halfway through the museum, past many of the displays, and I kept going back and forth because I though I'd missed a hotspot.

Quote:
That said, I have gotten nauseous in some free-swinging 360 games. When that happens, I try to find some way to slow the mouse speed or make the movement not so sensitive.

Unfortunately that doesn't work for me anymore. I have to either close my eyes or look away from the screen while it's moving. Sometimes I can get away with looking a foot or two to the right or left of the monitor and getting some idea of what's going on with peripheral vision. Either way is a lot worse than clicking through still images because I have to pay so much attention to not getting sick.

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#885400 - 05/03/13 07:48 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Jenny100]
lanlynk Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 321
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: Jenny100
Unfortunately that doesn't work for me anymore.

Well, we may differ on what we prefer in games, but I can certainly relate to having something not work for me the way it used to! In my case, my eyesight is not what it was, nor are my "lightening reflexes." Small print? Forget about it! Dexterious hand movements? Not gonna happen!lol

Not sure what has caused your recent dizziness trouble, but for my issues, it's just a matter of aging. rolleyes
_________________________
"Dragons were never gone. They were just invisible and very, very quiet." ~ M'aiq the Liar (Skyrim)

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#885402 - 05/03/13 08:20 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: lanlynk]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35618
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: lanlynk
but for my issues, it's just a matter of aging.

Probably the same thing here.
Whatever used to compensate for the movement the eyes were seeing not quite matching up with where the stomach was going -- it doesn't do it right any more.

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#885423 - 05/03/13 10:22 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
CountZero Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 01/26/11
Posts: 121
Scratches had both styles....

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#885428 - 05/03/13 10:50 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Jenny100]
lanlynk Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 321
Loc: Alaska
As everyone says, it's just good to have options.

Sometimes I wonder if the med I take for hypertension causes as many issues as it treats. Warning: May cause drowsiness, upset stomach, dizziness, or headaches. Don't operate heavy machinery ... So, is a computer heavy machinery? Hmm. headscratch
_________________________
"Dragons were never gone. They were just invisible and very, very quiet." ~ M'aiq the Liar (Skyrim)

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#885555 - 05/04/13 01:00 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: lanlynk]
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 23690
Loc: United Kingdom
Maybe the cost to an Indie developer also comes into the mix think [I don't know.]

But whatever the reason for slideshow being used, I'd rather have a "good" game with slideshow than a "mediocre" one with panning rolleyes
_________________________
Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#886068 - 05/07/13 05:40 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
Argyle1968 Offline
Shy Boomer

Registered: 05/27/08
Posts: 100
I like the "slide show" format, particularly in horror games, as I think it adds to the suspense/surprise aspect of that type of game. In fact, I think it works better for that type of game.

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#886151 - 05/07/13 12:56 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
Jema Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 09/11/02
Posts: 13659
Loc: Virginia
I prefer the slide show interface and am very happy that a number of game
developers are still using it and, apparently, do not consider it obsolete.

As for the 360 degree panning interface being "a clearly superior alternative",
I do not see it that way - it is just "an" alternative.

wave


Edited by Jema (05/07/13 12:57 PM)
_________________________
Wouldn't that jar your mustard!

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#886171 - 05/07/13 03:35 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
adv Offline
Shy Boomer

Registered: 03/27/08
Posts: 22
Loc: USA
For an "adventure game", I appreciate...

good pictures (I prefer "still frames")
a good story (with no graphic violence)
interesting puzzles (not too difficult)


If I "demand" expensive and "labor intensive" details,
many games may Never be completed.

Especially when Many very good developers
struggle, to get paid fairly, for their work.

Some of them may be tempted to give up.
They would love to complete their game,
if they can afford the low pay.

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#886182 - 05/07/13 04:15 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
traveler Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 3293
Loc: Rivellon
I have to admit I don't like the slide show format. I want to look closer at something or get farther away from it and I can't and it's annoying.
Anything, from the node to node (I believe that's what it's called) that Billy uses in LHOD to a full pan is better as far as I'm concerned.

And speaking of Bill, are you tired of action/RPGs yet? Thinking of a new AG? grin

Gil.
_________________________
"Best not to think about it. I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought."

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#886205 - 05/07/13 07:30 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: traveler]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35618
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: traveler
I have to admit I don't like the slide show format. I want to look closer at something or get farther away from it and I can't and it's annoying.
Anything, from the node to node (I believe that's what it's called) that Billy uses in LHOD to a full pan is better as far as I'm concerned.

I think what people are calling "slideshow" in this thread is the "node to node" (node-based movement) with no panning -- Games like Barrow Hill, the Carol Reeds, or the first Dark Fall.
For example, from ***the Jave synopsis of Barrow Hill at JA+***
Quote:
Game play is the good old fashioned 2D slide show.
And from the ***Barrow Hill review at Adventuregamers***
Quote:
The cursor is a simple directional one, that transports you by nodes in the direction you indicate, slide-show style. There is no 360-degree panning, and movement is only marked by the varied sound of the footfalls of your character. I prefer this, as you can cover ground much more quickly, and there is no waiting for a video sequence to end or your arrow to change direction as is sometimes the case in games with rotational movement.


Many games with panning are also node-based. In the Kheops games, you can pan 360, but you hop between nodes to move around.

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#886220 - 05/07/13 09:52 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
traveler Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 3293
Loc: Rivellon
The Carol Reed games are exactly what I was thinking of when I said I don't like the slideshow format. Especially indoors, I turn abruptly from one unrelated view to another and it leaves me disoriented. If that is node-based movement, Billy uses it a great deal better in LHOD. He never jams me in a corner and makes it impossible to for me to relate to where the rest of space is. I don't feel constrained in LHOD, as if I'm wearing a spacesuit, unable to see anything else around me and with someone holding my arm to keep me from turning.

I have played Barrow Hill and had much the same reaction thought not as strongly.

Evidently I need a crash course in correct terminology. wink

Gil.

_________________________
"Best not to think about it. I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought."

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#886251 - 05/08/13 04:24 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Jenny100]
Jema Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 09/11/02
Posts: 13659
Loc: Virginia
Quote:
Originally posted by Jenny100:

I think what people are calling "slideshow" in this thread is the
"node to node" (node-based movement) with no panning


Jenny, that's how I meant it - I thought the two were interchangeable. If not,
I also need a crash course in correct terminology. smile
_________________________
Wouldn't that jar your mustard!

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#886288 - 05/08/13 08:31 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35618
Loc: southeast USA
Originally Posted By: Jema
I thought the two were interchangeable.

Jema,
You're correct that they are interchangeable, but I don't think everyone realizes that. I thought they were different at first too. I even thought "slideshow" was different from "snapshot." I thought "snapshot" just meant still frames while "slideshow" meant you saw the images move to the side when they were changed, like they did with the old slide projectors they had when I was in elementary school, like ***this one***, or ***this one*** or even some of ***these***. And the only game I knew that did that was Chateau D'Or on an old 233 MHz computer, so it was confusing to see games like Myst referred to as "slideshow" games.

But after seeing so many reviews, articles, and forum posts in recent years that used both "slideshow" and "snapshot" to describe any game with movement like the original Myst, or the first two Dark Fall games (or ***Last Half of Darkness***), it became obvious I had the wrong idea and they were the same thing. In fact, "slideshow" seems to have overtaken "snapshot" as the description. I guess few people remember those old slide projectors where you saw the slide move to the side when it was being changed, which is why I still like "snapshot" better.

Originally Posted By: traveler
Especially indoors, I turn abruptly from one unrelated view to another and it leaves me disoriented. If that is node-based movement, Billy uses it a great deal better in LHOD.

I agree it's better when there are more views and that they relate to one another. If Carol Reed games disorient you, don't ever play S.P.Q.R. Not only do you land in completely different areas over 100 feet away, but they are absolutely nothing like what you were clicking on from the previous view. In S.P.Q.R., you pretty much are wearing a spacesuit (actually a time travel device). Of course S.P.Q.R. had other problems, like that so much of your time was spent reading one scroll after the other. But it had many fans who enjoyed the historical aspects of the game.

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#886292 - 05/08/13 09:05 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
mj2c Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 947
This was also the huge downer for Myst and games of that ilk, I used to just keep getting lost. It's a very disorientating system. The only game where I managed to persevere was Barrow Hill. That is one game that I should have loathed but it just drew me in and was the gem of that year.

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#886295 - 05/08/13 09:11 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 35618
Loc: southeast USA
Getting lost can happen in games with panning too. Remember the jungle maze in Beyond Atlantis (Atlantis 2) where the game apparently rotated you at the end of each click? You wouldn't know which direction you had come from and it made it very difficult to map the maze.

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#886296 - 05/08/13 09:17 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
mj2c Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 947
True but in Myst I seemed to spend more time re - finding locations I'd already been to than on the puzzles. You either have an eye for the slideshow system or you don't and I, as a general rule, don't.

It remains one of the few adventure games I've never finished (in fact Ive never finished any of them come to think of it:-)).

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#886299 - 05/08/13 09:35 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
GreyFuss Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 06/01/06
Posts: 2923
I love slide show type games. Please make more and more and more of these.
_________________________
"Don't Hate Me Because I Am Beautiful...There Are Many Other Reasons!"

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#886306 - 05/08/13 10:11 AM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Antoinetta]
mj2c Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 947
Boooooooh! to that. I'd have nothing to play:-)

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#886331 - 05/08/13 01:22 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: Jenny100]
traveler Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 3293
Loc: Rivellon
"Getting lost can happen in games with panning too. Remember the jungle maze in Beyond Atlantis (Atlantis 2) where the game apparently rotated you at the end of each click? You wouldn't know which direction you had come from and it made it very difficult to map the maze."

Map? You don't just blunder through? grin

I got lost in the jungle in BS2 and that's 3rd person. grin

Okay, so there are degrees and degrees of ickiness with the slide show format since, for me, LHOD has none. At least I'm not looking at disembodied hands out in front of me with lanterns or weapons in this format, as you can in games of another genre where you can look everywhere by panning. That would drive me around the bend.

Gil.
_________________________
"Best not to think about it. I don't want to fall to bits 'cos of excess existential thought."

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#886375 - 05/08/13 04:47 PM Re: Slide-Show Format [Re: traveler]
lanlynk Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/07/13
Posts: 321
Loc: Alaska
Originally Posted By: traveler
Okay, so there are degrees and degrees of ickiness with the slide show format since, for me, LHOD has none. At least I'm not looking at disembodied hands out in front of me with lanterns or weapons in this format, as you can in games of another genre where you can look everywhere by panning. That would drive me around the bend.

Degrees of ickiness: Yes, for me too. It really depends on the game. I've enjoyed a lot of slide-show type games, while the movement in some others felt very awkward. But as I said before, some 360 spinning can be disorienting too, unless I can slow it down.

Disembodied hands: So funny! I enjoy RPG games, but I have to agree with you here. I play in 3rd person exclusively, and absolutely love an open world format. But I want to see my entire avatar, not just the arms. The only time I switch to 1st person is to better aim with archery or to look closer at objects during searching.
_________________________
"Dragons were never gone. They were just invisible and very, very quiet." ~ M'aiq the Liar (Skyrim)

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