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#118543 - 11/08/03 02:44 AM Walkthrough thoughts
chrisdist Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 05/22/01
Posts: 1079
Loc: NY, NY
While I appreciate the WTs people write one thing that really cheeses me off is when a WT tells you what to do but not how they arrived at that conclusion (which seemd to be the majority of the WTs). makes me wonder if they really figured it out or just got the solution somewhere else. I don't think that helps at all: sort of a cop-out if you ask me..........?
Thoughts....?
c

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#118544 - 11/08/03 03:14 AM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
Advpuzlov Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 06/05/99
Posts: 2027
Loc: USA
That's one of the reasons I steer clear of walkthroughs until after I have finished a game. I write a game journal in which I chronicle my thinking as I progress through the game. I am compulsive about figuring out the logic of puzzles. When, as has happened a number of times, I come upon a solution just in fiddling about, trying to grasp the objectives of the puzzle, I restore so that I can "do it properly." Just getting through a game is not primary. It is thoroughly understanding the rationale of the game that is my objective. That is why it takes me a lot longer to play a game than it takes most players. It is also why the number of pages of "notes" can get well over a hundred for a single game, if, as in BLACK DAHLIA it has real substance. In fact, my typed-up journal for that game is over 200 pages.

If you really want to understand the logical structure of puzzles in a game, I suggest you write down your thoughts, even those that turn out to be blind alleys. Doing so will clarify your thinking and enable you to solve more and more difficult puzzles as you gain experience. You also might find it to be more satisfying. One really doesn't have to rush through a game. Take the time to really become familiar with it. I restore rather frequently until I become "intimate" with the surroundings. SCHIZM, for example, is like an old friend, as is SHIVERS and BLACK DAHLIA.
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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -- Aristotle

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#118545 - 11/08/03 03:22 AM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
Bea Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 02/12/00
Posts: 2283
Loc: Australia
I think that's one of the main things I enjoyed with Magnetic. You had to find out what the puzzle or game was - how to play it and what the rules were. In other words you had to master the game. I felt a great sense of achievement each time I actually completed one of them. There is an excellent walkthrough for it but I am glad it was produced after I completed the game.
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Id non feci, me facere vidit nemo, nec aliquid probare potes
I didn't do it, no one saw me do it, you can't prove anything

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#118546 - 11/08/03 05:25 AM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
popcorneater Offline
Adept Boomer

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 11557
Loc: Virginia
chrisdists
I understand what you are saying.
Knowing the answer without the "how did I get the answer" type of thing is annoying.
I too try to stay away from walkthrus; but if stuck or frustrated to the point of shutting down a game rather than continue-I'll use one.
And grateful as I am that there is one; I've become very picky about whose name is on it.
I prefer hints to walkthrus any day-as I think most puzzle solving, mystery loving adventure players would.
I have always felt-still do folks-great respect for those that can write a walkthru or give great hints to those of us that need it.
But just to say you go from X-Z without a clue as to how to arrive at that conclusion-NOPE. I want to be gently led or strongly pushed to get to that point without missing any element(Y in this case)

Advlovpuz
My hat off to you and I bow with great respect.
I hope I grow to love games as much as you and the desire to want knowledge along with pleasure of playing. You simply wowed me!
Ingie laugh
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#118547 - 11/08/03 05:46 AM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
colpet Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 01/07/01
Posts: 1967
Loc: Orillia, Ontario, Canada
If I am going to use a WT, I agree about wanting an explanation for the puzzle solve. When I played Schizm, I needed help with the base 12 math. The WT I used had a detailed 'lesson' about how it worked. I spent a long time going through each step, then working it out for myself.

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#118548 - 11/08/03 06:08 AM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
Becky Offline
The Medieval Lady
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 26916
Loc: Stony Brook, New York, USA
Hmmm. Walkthroughs are educational? Well, why not!

When I use a walkthrough I want to get in and out fast. I want to just see what I need to see to get the stuckness pain over. I'm afraid that extra information will spoil something for later. I sort of look at them while half closing my eyes.

I've sometimes felt that it would be nice to have something like a walkthrough but more descriptive with, yes, explanations for puzzle solves. A companion for the journey. You finish one section in the game, then go back and read through the thoughts someone else has had about puzzle solves, story themes, comparisons to other games, little details you might have missed, and speculations as to where the story might be going. Anything that might be a spoiler could be set off by being in italics or something.

I often read reviews of a game as I play it to get a bit of this feeling.

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#118549 - 11/08/03 12:26 PM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
RydAStar Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 430
Loc: Ontario, Canada
I usually only go to walkthroughs if I can't reason things out myself, I use one when I'm totally stumped on puzzles.

They come in handy if you haven't made notes for yourself and are wanting to help a friend too. They contain major points of interest and major parts in the games.

The one time I did start out with a Walkthrough, I ceased to stop thinking for myself and could not get a proper feel for the gameplay, then I had to finish the game using the walkthrough. I try only to go to a walkthrough as a last ditch effort. The games are so much more indepth and interesting when you're stuck and looking for things.
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Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't
~Margaret Thatcher~

Playing: !! Syberia II finally. \:D !!
Next: Jack Orlando

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#118550 - 11/08/03 01:12 PM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 38407
Loc: southeast USA
Try UHS hints . Click where it says "More Hints" to get an alphabet, where you choose the letter your game starts with. They usually give you several clues how to solve a puzzle before actually telling you the answer. Unfortunately, not every game has a UHS hints for it.

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#118551 - 11/08/03 01:21 PM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
Scout Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 1118
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Strategy guides are useful too. They flesh out ideas, supply all kinds of side information, many times give clever hints and usually quarantine the spoiler-laden walkthrough to it's own section. Of course they cost extra. But I find when I've really tried to solve a puzzle and am stuck, all I need is the gentlest nudge, not a blow by blow description on how to solve the puzzle. That is like killing a fly with a cannon sometimes.

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#118552 - 11/08/03 02:56 PM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
Fongo Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 03/10/01
Posts: 839
Loc: Bradford, ON
After writing about a dozen or so walkthroughs, I can assure you that you are correct - a good number of walkthroughs contain several very sketchy puzzle solutions because the author did not properly understand the puzzle or the solution.

I've always been really careful about explaining to the reader exactly how they were supposed to come up with a solution to a puzzle, because that's what I look for in a walkthrough myself. (In fact, I've been stumped twice by puzzles in my walkthroughs, and in both cases, I've told the reader that I was stumped.)

At the same time, I realize that others look for very quick simple solutions to puzzles, and aren't interested in long explanations. They probably wouldn't find my walkthroughs useful in those situations.

That's why it's great we have all kinds of walkthrough styles to choose from.

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#118553 - 11/08/03 05:10 PM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
LadyKestrel Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 10/08/03
Posts: 9759
Loc: The Garden State
I agree with Scout. The strategy and solutions guides are usually set up the best for me. If I'm stuck, I like to be encouraged with soft hints or subtle questions first which will (hopefully) allow me to discover the logic on my own. If I still don't get it, then I don't mind being bludgeoned with the answer.

I also like a little humor with my hints. A hint like "Do you really think you can break down that door with your bare hands?" is much better than "Find crowbar in shed. Place in inventory. Walk to door. Click crowbar on door." (I like games like ZORK GRAND INQUISTOR for that very reason. Dalboz gives great hints while making me laugh.)

Lady K.
_________________________
Just hand over the cookies and no one gets hurt!

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#118554 - 11/09/03 01:09 AM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
Anonymous
Unregistered


Guess I am very lazy! Most walkthrus I print off don't give the 2-r, 3-l, click on door handle stuff. However, I am one of those gamers that gets VERY lost, the puzzle are easy, getting around is the hard bit, especially if I KNOW I could DIE any minute ...... Oh for the Old Days when there was no Internet ....... or walkthrus lol

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#118555 - 11/09/03 02:07 AM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
granny Offline
BAAG Specialist

Registered: 08/27/99
Posts: 7408
Loc: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida USA
There is one Walkthru for AMERZONE that reads like a good book. I read it 3 years before playing the game, so it didn't spoil anything.
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Granny Goodwitch

A woman NEVER shot a man while he was doing dishes!

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#118556 - 11/09/03 12:40 PM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
wysewomon Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 10/23/03
Posts: 3506
Loc: hunched over my computer
I am the kind of gamer who only uses a walkthrough as a last resort after banging my head about a puzzle for many hours. And I ONLY use a WT at all when there is no UHS file. I hope this doesn't sound horrible, but I just don't understand how some people play games with the walkthroughs right at their elbows, following along and doing what the WT says to the exclusion of anything else. I don't understand why a person would play at all that way -- at least not adventure games; I understand why that might be a positive boon in shooters and other action oriented games.

Anyway, I agree that one of the things that bothers me about WTs is the "Do that" without any reason or logic part. The only time this doesn't bother me is when the puzzle solution seems so random that I'm not sure there is any logic (Mystery of the Druids in certain places comes to mind).

But what I really don't like about WTs is that they're the record of someone else's game experience. I have my own experience gaming and sometimes WTs actually don't make a lot of sense because it's NOT my experience. And then you have to read a lot more than you really wanted to figure out what WAS this person's experience and how it can tie into your own...which can be interesting, but AFTER solving the game on your own the first time.

WW
_________________________
"So then he says it's enough to take aim! What's that supposed to mean?!?"


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#118557 - 11/09/03 01:26 PM Re: Walkthrough thoughts
Lagavulin Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 04/15/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
bravo Jenny 100

In 99,9 % of the times when I get totally stuck I use UHS Hints. Since I don't want know about the whole puzzle its the best way to do it, at least thats my opinion. I never use a walk through, it gives away to much.

whistle
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