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#122756 - 05/16/03 08:24 AM Re: More action creepin' in ????
nolalou Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 02/10/00
Posts: 4996
Loc: New Orleans, LA. USA
Speaking of "Action/Adventure" , I read that the new "Full Throttle" will be 50/50 action & adventure. It will feature fight scenes that were compared to the ones in the new Indiana Jones game.

I think the reason some Adventure gamers worry about 'action' sequences in adventure games is not only that these parts are not well done, but that we don't like to play them. If it's a timed puzzle or something you can use logic and think your way out of, that's one thing, but if you just need fast reflexes, that's quite another.

As for 'direct control' of characters as opposed to 'point & click', I assume this means controls like we saw in games like "Grim Fandango", or "Largo Winch". That is, mainly keyboard controlled like in some action games. I don't have a particular problem with this, but I do tend to run my character into walls sometimes, and I know lots of gamers just don't care for it. I must say, I don't see it as any great improvment over "Point & Click", and it may well add to the frustration factor.

Louis

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#122757 - 05/16/03 08:45 AM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Singer Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 2521
I disagree that the dread of "action" in games is based primarily on bad personal experiences. That's why I asked. It seems to me that the whole issue has taken on a life of its own; a kind of mass hysteria. lol

I understand that SOME action sequences may have caused people grief in past games, but then so have sliders, mazes, obtuse puzzles, etc. But the prevailing attitude towards THOSE is that it's an accepted part of the game, and there's always help if needed.

But I think the notion of action derails that same train of thought, and jumps into a different mindset of action = combat = twitch factor = blood pressure rising = I won't be able to do it = I won't like this game. That's a LOT of leaps!!

Of course I'm not unsympathetic to people with arthritis, but my own experiences from playing keyboard/mouse combined games is that it's my MOUSE hand that gets cramped!! eek eek

And Peter, the better third person action games use a similar setup to the first person games now. Anyone who has played American McGee's Alice (for example) will vouch for its silky smooth controls, so it's possible to do it right.

Jack
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Editor, Adventure Gamers

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#122758 - 05/16/03 10:24 AM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Mad Offline
True Blue Boomer

Registered: 11/21/00
Posts: 22798
Loc: United Kingdom
Hi again smile

Scrolling through these posts I find that Laura has succinctly put what I was struggling to say lol ...........

"To me climbing up a downspout, squashing the spider with the book shelf or when Nico has to get the bad guy on the boat before she gets offed: are all action or physical puzzles. But they aren't action like in standard shooters or action games. For one - there isn't any TWITCH factor. You just have to click on the right choice."

That was the word I needed...."TWITCH" !! wave
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Time : The Most Precious Commodity

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#122759 - 05/16/03 10:55 AM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Kickaha Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 03/27/01
Posts: 2407
Loc: Cambridge, England
The twitch factor is one issue that would deter me from playing a game - my reflexes are not up to those of a teenager. I don't think that's an issue for BS3 or TLJ2.

The problem I'm likely to have with games which use keyboard or joystick controls is just that I find them hard to use. I don't need another "Grim Fandango" experience. Some get on with keyboard controls, some don't. This isn't a question of mass hysteria, just personal experience.

I like to play games where I'm concentrating on the story and puzzles not trying painfully to maneouvre around.

Regards, Peter.
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Previously had display name of "Peter Smith"


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#122760 - 05/16/03 11:02 AM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well, I must put my two cents worth in here.
Dear Steve Ince(at work), using a point and click interface may be too passive for you, but for those of us who can't manage the keyboard for one reason or another, you are locking us out of the adventure game experience altogether!
I have had to return several Dreamcatcher/Adventure games because they had no indication, either on the game-box/jc or on the web site or in reviews that the interface was keyboard only, or had several keyboard features.
You young healthy people seem to thing that you are the only ones playing games out there. Well you are wrong. There are people who have had strokes and can only use one hand, or have some sort of physical problem that makes the keyboard very difficult to use. We especially need these games to make life more enjoyable. I really hate that this new thinking may jeopardize our ability to have the one challenge that we can enjoy.

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#122761 - 05/16/03 11:19 AM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Singer Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 09/04/01
Posts: 2521
Grim Fandango had a terrible control system (though I thought the game itself was excellent). And so did the Tomb Raiders and countless other games, adventures and action and RPG alike.

But there ARE good ones, and plenty of room for improvement, which is why I hope people won't assume that EVERY keyboard/mouse game will control horribly, or that every action sequence will be unmanageable. Sometimes it may not seem that way, but surely developers are learning.

I'm certainly not singling anyone out here, or saying that anyone is overreacting to their OWN experiences. But I've certainly seen examples where people are willing to dismiss games out of hand, simply from knowing nothing more than that a game has "action" in it. I'd hate to see BS3 or TLJ2 or the LucasArts sequels be pre-judged before they've had a chance to shine.

Jack
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Editor, Adventure Gamers

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#122762 - 05/16/03 11:37 AM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Steve Ince (at work) Offline
Shy Boomer

Registered: 05/12/03
Posts: 68
Loc: York
Hi FlowerPower,
I must admit to never having contemplated your quite serious issue. There will be a certain amount of customisability of the interface on the PC, but because there are some timing puzzles and areas where you may have to sneak around I'm not sure whether this wil be enough to make the game playable for you. I'm sorry that the move away from point-and-click will be detrimental to your enjoyment of what we believe is our best game to date.
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Steve Ince

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#122763 - 05/16/03 11:52 AM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Anonymous
Unregistered


smile It is not just your company Steve, but the whole industry is starting to think the PC is a poor cousin, and are primarily writing for the box, and porting to the PC. I realize that with some games, use of the keyboard does make the movement more controllable, but please don't forget us entirely. We are customers too, and we buy a lot of games. The adventure game genre is one of the ways that we have discovered to make life a little more bearable. Sometimes, for us, it is the only way we can have any real challenge.
thumbsup

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#122764 - 05/16/03 11:52 AM Re: More action creepin' in ????
nickie Offline
Grand wizard of high mucky muck
Adept Boomer

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 13453
Loc: Texas
Probably irrelevant to some degree, but just my thoughts - point and click can be used wonderfully well in action type games as well, Divine Divinity being an excellent example. Some people equate action with keyboard maneuvering, and there are many games that are horribly clunky in this regard, so their trepidation is well justified. I agree with Gatorlaw when she said that she is more concerned with the statement "point and click" is dead.
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#122765 - 05/16/03 12:24 PM Re: More action creepin' in ????
mszv Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 03/18/02
Posts: 1565
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA (left my bel...
Well, I'm 51, my reflexes are terrible, and I'm going to give these games with keyboard control and a "little bit of action" a shot (oh, bad pun).

Along with the passive nature of point and click (which I like), and a static, slow game (which I also like) can't we have something else too? I'd like an adventure game where something more is happening on the screen, and my experience is a bit more, well, immersive and not so passive. They do call them "adventure games", after all. I'm not talking fast reflexes and shooting, but I'm willing to go with a slightly different format, and a different interface. I'm an adventure gamer too, just like the rest of you, and I'm fast getting into my "older years" (and remember, I've got reflexes about the speed and skill of a drunk tortoise, and that's probably unkind to the tortoise). Let's see what these new adventure games have to offer. I also want some adventure games with 3D engines and full range of movement. Bring it on.

Look, I'm not trivializing anyone's mobility impairments, but I think there can be room in the adventure game genre for more than one interface. I really want to have some different adventure game experiences. Depending on the interface, and, of course, one's mobility, I don't think keyboard control is bad. You know, for repetitive stress injuries, the mouse is more the cause of them then the keyboard (though a big mouse is better than a little one).

Personally, even a mouse interface is too much for me, sometimes. I'd like to wave my hand in front of the screen, and have something happen. That's for later, I think. Wait, doesn't the new Sony handheld game device (still in development) have an attached camera that does something like that? Adventure game developers, are you listening? Do that!

All for now.
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mszv, amarez in Myst Online (KI 89257)and my online worlds.

blog - http://www.amarez.com, Twitter - http://www.twitter.com/amareze

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#122766 - 05/16/03 12:24 PM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Scout Offline
Addicted Boomer

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 1118
Loc: Portland, Oregon
I'm 52 and my motor skills are starting to wane. The biggest problem I have oddly enough, is with mouse-only point and click games. They make my wrist and fingers hurt and I'm using a good solid ergonomic setup with raised monitor, lowered keyboard and well-placed mouse. I find the mouse/keyboard combo the most relaxing, most controllable, immersive and least harmful to my wrists and hands. So if that is what is meant by direct control I'm in favor of it.

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#122767 - 05/16/03 01:21 PM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Anonymous
Unregistered


thumbsup

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#122768 - 05/16/03 02:31 PM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Diamond Offline
Settled Boomer

Registered: 09/11/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Yorkshire
I do appreciate everything that is being said and I'll put a few things into a little personal perspective. I'm 45 and later this month my eldest son and his partner will be making me a grandparent, so, although I'm not old, I'm no spring chicken. My own partner is a little older than me and suffers with arthritis and also has a hearing problem. I myself have a lop-sided shoulder which has been with me all my life and a few years ago had to have an operation on my wrist for tendonitis. So I'm completely sympathetic to your issues.

Apart from one person, I'm the oldest in the company and many of the others are in their early to mid 20s. As a company we have a lot of creative talent that loves making games and has a great desire to do the best possible. The story and gameplay vision can only be fully realised by giving the game a large budget. This in turn necessitates making the game accessible to a wide number of people across multiple platforms because if we don't make a profit then we will be making games for no one next year.

We do not look on PC as the poor side of the equation as we develop the game across all three platforms simultaneously. The gameplay is the same, the interface a little different, but in some ways the PC version will be the better because of higher screen resolution, higher texture detail and maximum sound quality.

We do care about giving our customers the best possible - it's just a shame that we are unable to do so for everybody.
_________________________
Steve

Steve Ince, Writer-Designer
Steve on Twitter

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#122769 - 05/16/03 02:40 PM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Jenny100 Offline
GB Reviewer Glitches Moderator
Sonic Boomer

Registered: 10/24/00
Posts: 34868
Loc: southeast USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Scout:
I'm 52 and my motor skills are starting to wane. The biggest problem I have oddly enough, is with mouse-only point and click games.
Have you tried switching hands? Even if the mouse is designed to be used with the right hand, I switch it to my left hand when my right hand/arm is bothering me to give my right hand/arm a rest. Or sometimes I move the mouse with my right hand but poke at the buttons with my left. It isn't my hand or fingers that bother me so much as further up my arm. I'm not as old as you, but my joints and tendons seem to be prematurely worn out from repetitive motion stress.

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#122770 - 05/16/03 03:05 PM Re: More action creepin' in ????
Anonymous
Unregistered


Jen have you or Scout ever considered using an alternative mouse such as the Cirque Smartcat?
One can lean back in the chair, and use it with one finger.
http://www.ergo-items.com/smart_cat_touchpad.htm

The new one has great setup control features. Try it, you might like it.


Edited by looney4labs (06/26/07 11:19 AM)
Edit Reason: updated link

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