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Dreamfall. Wow. #263575
01/16/08 03:21 PM
01/16/08 03:21 PM
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I assume this discussion was held here, at the time, many times. I however was not a part of it and feel I owe this marvelous game (is it really a game?) at least a thread smile.

I had just finished it.
While I find it hard to call it my favorite game ever (and I'll soon go in details with that), it had some elements... that I, as a player, always envisioned, or wished to see, in a game. A feel of realism that you get when you watch a moovie, or when yuo read a book.
Dreamfall had it. It brought me to some very, very powerful moments.
As for the gameplay... well, there isn't much, if you'd ask me. You're mostly wondering about, making errands from here to here. Can't say it was tiresom, but wasn't exactly challanging either. Easiest game I've ever played. And I'm used to hard, solid games, in which you need to sweat in order to advance smile.
Although this element did lack in Dreamfall, it did not bother me. The story was soooo compeling, so creative. The characters. The atmosphere.
The... ending.
I have never, ever seen such an ending.
Click to reveal..
The whole scene in the doll house. And what's coming after... almost wept.


To make tihs post relavent: I have understood there should be a sequal to Dreamfall. Is it official? Is there a date? Where do I find more info on it?


There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #263582
01/16/08 03:39 PM
01/16/08 03:39 PM
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Hi Tomer -- Funcom announced a few months ago that they'll be developing the sequel as a series of episodes, starting out as downloads. Since then we haven't heard any more about it. frown

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #263592
01/16/08 04:01 PM
01/16/08 04:01 PM
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waveHello Tomer-
I recently finished Dreamfall and am now playing it again-It's so compelling and such an interesting story-I'm picking up on things tat I didn't see the first time.The ending is kinda sad though. I hope there is a sequel!


People do not remember how much you know,only how you make them feel
finished Gray Matter, playing Alice Madness returns and Deponia
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #263601
01/16/08 04:16 PM
01/16/08 04:16 PM
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Hi Tomer, I loved the game also & the story within it was concluded nicely but did feel that a lot was left hanging. As I understand it's going to carry on in downloadable episodes? smile

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: chrissie] #263627
01/16/08 05:00 PM
01/16/08 05:00 PM
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There is a lot to dislike about Dreamfall. The pointless fighting scenes along with the seemingly endless stealth drove me to distraction. I also did not care for the presentation of Stark disintegrated into a "junkyard" of depression. TLJ's April certainly would not have recognized it. But I agree it is an outstanding game. The lack of puzzles bemoaned by many did not bother me at all. The story is the game and it is amazing. Where it lands on The List of great games will be a debate all it's own. It certainly is not The Longest journey which pacts a wallop and defines the wow factor. I regard TLJ as the best ever some will agree some won't But the countless endearing characters, the places, and well crafted story has never been equalled. Presently for me Dreamfall is barely hanging on to the top ten. We have a couple of Gabriel knights, Broken Swords ( at least one ), Syberia, maybe even Culpa Innata taking up space. Where does Dreamfall fit in? I am still uncertain, but it's great enough to be considered. Perhaps if Ragnar can
Click to reveal..
resurrect April, loose the action scenes,drop kian in a hole and answer the questions he left hanging.
I know that's a lot. Do that and we will have the Greatest Adventure series of all time.

Last edited by BrownEyedTigre; 01/16/08 05:23 PM. Reason: added spoiler tag
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner] #263637
01/16/08 05:14 PM
01/16/08 05:14 PM
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I believe the above post by oldmariner contains a spoiler which should be covered up. smile


ray
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner] #263645
01/16/08 05:23 PM
01/16/08 05:23 PM
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Ah, Dreamfall, what a heartbreaking experience that was for yours truly. The first part with Zoe's story was so wonderful I was ready to nominate it to the Hall of Fame with all the award available. But then came April and I stayed with her and the early fighting scenes even though I wasn't happy with them, but then April entered a cave with the evil troll killing her and she could not fight back so never had a chance. Stealth was hard for me since I would move on the wrong pixel somehow and the game would hang up, April's feet would be moving but she was stuck in one place and I would have to go to a save. After a few saves and the times I got killed and had to start over (I think the game had an automatic save there) I got completely lost in the cave. The puzzle with those runes was way beyond me to add to my problems so I just gave up, feeling terribly letdown after the high of the beginning. I will never forget this game though. That's something anyway!


To love is to be happy with!
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: RayBres] #263646
01/16/08 05:23 PM
01/16/08 05:23 PM
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oldmariner Offline
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no comment

Last edited by oldmariner; 01/16/08 05:28 PM.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: RayBres] #263647
01/16/08 05:23 PM
01/16/08 05:23 PM
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In the Naughty Corner
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In the Naughty Corner
THanks Ray...got it.

Ana wave


Don't feed the Trolls
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: oldmariner] #263648
01/16/08 05:24 PM
01/16/08 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted By: oldmariner
The lack of puzzles bemoaned by many did not bother me at all.

What bothered me a lot was how they substituted those annoying timed arcade "challenges" as door locks instead of using real puzzles. Always the same type too, no variety.

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100] #263837
01/17/08 05:21 AM
01/17/08 05:21 AM
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There's no doubt about it - the puzzles in this game were very, very plane. They were not creative by any means, repetetive, and didn't make much sense.
But let's not forget that puzzles are there mostly to support the plot and story. They are a tool. And I've mentioned already I really like puzzles, good puzzles, but I've never ceased to believe that puzzles should be constructed for the sake of the story, and not for the sake of being a puzzle.
So, if the story is what Dreamfall does best - let it be. It hardly needed the puzzles to be excellent.
Who knows how this game would be preceived by adventurers, if it were to have good, solid puzzles.


There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #263887
01/17/08 08:43 AM
01/17/08 08:43 AM
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Tomer, have you finished the game? I had to struggle to get used to the interface, but I ending up loving the game. wave


"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole."
-Roger Caras
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: looney4labs] #263906
01/17/08 09:26 AM
01/17/08 09:26 AM
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Tel Aviv, Israel.
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Of course I finished it, I posted this thread right after, feeling overwhelmed, and I had to release my energies somewhere smile.
I got used to the interface in no time, I'm a quick learner.


There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #263908
01/17/08 09:28 AM
01/17/08 09:28 AM
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southeast USA
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Originally Posted By: Tomer
But let's not forget that puzzles are there mostly to support the plot and story.

I disagree. The puzzles and the story have to go together. Otherwise you have a movie with interruptions.

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100] #263971
01/17/08 12:01 PM
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Well, what would you prefer? A movie with interruptions (Dreamfall?) or a series of puzzles, that connect nothing with nothing?
Even if you're not cracking your head up, and just leading your character from a place to another, plus choosing the forms of dialogs - I still call that gaming.
In my eyes, what gives games their special thing, for me, is the fact that they give you the strongest illusion of being a part of the story.
If there's no story, there's no game. At least, not an adventure game. Might as well play mine sweeper.

However, I do agree that a game with good puzzles, integrated with the plot, has a definite advantage. I still claim puzzles should support the story, and not vice versa. I don't see how that's not true.
If someone were to develop a game, I would want him to have a vision for a story, for things he wants to convey. Only afterwards, I think he needs to develop good, solid puzzles for the sake of the plot.
Of course you could have your "puzzle-game" thingy, which might be fun, but really, I can't even compare the two.


There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #264071
01/17/08 03:37 PM
01/17/08 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tomer
Well, what would you prefer? A movie with interruptions (Dreamfall?) or a series of puzzles, that connect nothing with nothing?

The puzzles. At least then it would be a game.

Quote:
Even if you're not cracking your head up, and just leading your character from a place to another, plus choosing the forms of dialogs - I still call that gaming.

I'd call that an interactive movie rather than an adventure game.

Quote:
In my eyes, what gives games their special thing, for me, is the fact that they give you the strongest illusion of being a part of the story.

I never felt I was "part of" the Dreamfall story. I felt I was "witnessing" it, just as I would witness a movie. Occasionally it would be interrupted by the need to fight something or do one of those stupid lock minigames.

Quote:
If there's no story, there's no game. At least, not an adventure game.

If there are no challenges, there's no game.
Dreamfall had "challenges" in the form of clumsy fights and lock find-and-click-the-symbol-real-fast minigames. There weren't many adventure type puzzles at all, and the ones there were were often flawed (e.g. - the sound that only played once that was supposed to be a vital clue for a puzzle).

Quote:
Might as well play mine sweeper.

So all puzzles look like minesweeper to you?

Quote:
However, I do agree that a game with good puzzles, integrated with the plot, has a definite advantage. I still claim puzzles should support the story, and not vice versa. I don't see how that's not true.

What differentiates it from a movie then?
Not just the puzzles, but the type of puzzles.

Quote:
If someone were to develop a game, I would want him to have a vision for a story, for things he wants to convey. Only afterwards, I think he needs to develop good, solid puzzles for the sake of the plot.

There's something to be said for developing them at the same time. You can have a rough outline for how the story goes, but once you get into the details of how the story will progress you should consider the puzzles at the same time. That's probably the only way you can get the pacing of the story correct.

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Jenny100] #264119
01/17/08 06:16 PM
01/17/08 06:16 PM
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Well, if you want it like that:

Originally Posted By: Jenny100
Originally Posted By: Tomer
Well, what would you prefer? A movie with interruptions (Dreamfall?) or a series of puzzles, that connect nothing with nothing?

The puzzles. At least then it would be a game.


Then perhaps our expectations from games are different. While you might be correct to call a series of puzzles a "game", it would still be a very empty game in my eyes. If all games were like that, I would really want to go to movies and read books only.

Quote:
Quote:
Even if you're not cracking your head up, and just leading your character from a place to another, plus choosing the forms of dialogs - I still call that gaming.

I'd call that an interactive movie rather than an adventure game.

Call it what you like. I don't believe there should be only one type of adventure game. It's like saying "that's not true art". It might not be a game by your definition, but it certainly is by mine.

Quote:
Quote:
In my eyes, what gives games their special thing, for me, is the fact that they give you the strongest illusion of being a part of the story.

I never felt I was "part of" the Dreamfall story. I felt I was "witnessing" it, just as I would witness a movie. Occasionally it would be interrupted by the need to fight something or do one of those stupid lock minigames.

When I said a "part of", I meant the fact that you control the pace and progress of events. You sympathize with characters, and lead them. Of course it's programmed, like every game, but the illusion is what matters.
Besides, you obviously speak for yourself since there are many who were really touched by this game.

Quote:
Quote:
If there's no story, there's no game. At least, not an adventure game.

If there are no challenges, there's no game.
Dreamfall had "challenges" in the form of clumsy fights and lock find-and-click-the-symbol-real-fast minigames. There weren't many adventure type puzzles at all, and the ones there were were often flawed (e.g. - the sound that only played once that was supposed to be a vital clue for a puzzle).


Again, if we're talking about a "game" in it's classic definition, I guess you have a point there. However, I still think that a game centered only around puzzles would be "fun", at best. Nothing close to experienced I have with games I consider good. It would take the essence of the word "adventure" away from adventure games.
btw, the music puzzle - you actually get to hear the creatures humming the 4 tunes all the time. This is how I solved it. They just never stopped humming the tunes until I opened the door.
Also, another beautiful element that I noticed is that these four tunes were an axis for the soundtrack of this area. It was very haunting.

Quote:
Quote:
Might as well play mine sweeper.

So all puzzles look like minesweeper to you?

Of course not. Most of them are related to a certain plot line.

Quote:
Quote:
However, I do agree that a game with good puzzles, integrated with the plot, has a definite advantage. I still claim puzzles should support the story, and not vice versa. I don't see how that's not true.

What differentiates it from a movie then?
Not just the puzzles, but the type of puzzles.


What diffrentiates it from a movie is the fact that you still lead your character in your pace, you still get an illusion (most of us did) that you're responsible for the plot's progress, and besides: there are some challanges in Dreamafall! That part in Victory Hotel... Oh my g*d! That was so frightning, and I failed a couple of times.
If a game were to have no challanges at all, I would find it a bit silly, but if it had a really good plot, I'd play it anyway.
I dunno, I might also enjoy playing a game filled with puzzles and nothing more. But I know that while one might make me excited, anticipated, frightened, anxious, curious, etc.... the other would only be fun. At best.

Quote:
Quote:
If someone were to develop a game, I would want him to have a vision for a story, for things he wants to convey. Only afterwards, I think he needs to develop good, solid puzzles for the sake of the plot.

There's something to be said for developing them at the same time. You can have a rough outline for how the story goes, but once you get into the details of how the story will progress you should consider the puzzles at the same time. That's probably the only way you can get the pacing of the story correct.


It definitely sounds ideal.
I'm only saying - if you'd tell me: Listen, I have two games; one has a really good critisizm about it's plot, story, elements, etc... while the other has some really good puzzles...
I would take the plot game smile.
The best puzzles I can think of, are always strongly related to the plot.
I really liked LSR in GK3, for example. One of the best puzzles I've ever seen.
Also, the spider chair in Spire, in Myst 4 (and Spire generally).

A puzzle with nothing behind it is so... empty.


There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #264151
01/17/08 07:39 PM
01/17/08 07:39 PM
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Kentwood, Left my heart in New...
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I may as well comment once and for all. Glad I played it (?) or whatever it was you did with the so called game. But it is at the bottom of my list as far as games go. Great story though!


I Baag, Therefore I Am. Update: I Don't Baag Anymore, Therefore I Ain't! Update: I'm baaging again but just a little.
JohnBoy
----------------
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: JohnBoy] #264155
01/17/08 07:45 PM
01/17/08 07:45 PM
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california
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I'm playing the game right now(Thanks to a special person) and I'm enjoying it. I dont like the fighting but the storyline is interesting.


smile
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #264253
01/17/08 09:55 PM
01/17/08 09:55 PM
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southeast USA
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Originally Posted By: Tomer
btw, the music puzzle - you actually get to hear the creatures humming the 4 tunes all the time. This is how I solved it. They just never stopped humming the tunes until I opened the door.


Click to reveal..
I'm talking about the sound you hear when you put the glowing egg on the weird machine. It was supposed to make a sound you had to match for the wall glyph puzzle. And it would not repeat unless you reloaded a save from before you used the egg.


The most annoying thing about it is that they must have had the ability to design better puzzles, but they apparently couldn't be bothered. TLJ had much better puzzles -- the alchemy puzzle, for example.

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #264300
01/18/08 12:38 AM
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Thanks a lot Tomer for your review of Dreamfall... I didn't want to play this game because the previous one(The Longest Journey) was for me a very boring game with a lot of walking and no story. After i read your review i definetely give it a try. At least it has puzzles...
It sounds promising...
thanks


Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Volkana] #264322
01/18/08 04:07 AM
01/18/08 04:07 AM
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Volkana.... the whole discussion is about the fact that Dreamfall doesn't really have puzzles :), but a wonderful story.

Jenny100, I was talking about that puzzle.
Click to reveal..
The same tunes that the glowing egg gives you, are hummed by the creature all the time. Check it out if you like


There's definitely definitely definitely no logic to human behaviour.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #264324
01/18/08 04:14 AM
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It seems that i missed that part or i understand wrong...
I thought you said that there were puzzles but not challenging at all and very common...
Anyway...

Sorry... blush

Last edited by VOLKANA; 01/18/08 04:22 AM.

Fear can hold you prisoner. Hope can set you free.
Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Volkana] #264419
01/18/08 08:21 AM
01/18/08 08:21 AM
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Becky Offline
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I learn something new every day! I didn't realize that
Click to reveal..
the creatures hum!


A good reason to go back in Dreamfall and see what else I missed.

Re: Dreamfall. Wow. [Re: Tomer] #264457
01/18/08 09:45 AM
01/18/08 09:45 AM
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southeast USA
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Originally Posted By: Tomer
Jenny100, I was talking about that puzzle.
Click to reveal..
The same tunes that the glowing egg gives you, are hummed by the creature all the time. Check it out if you like


Click to reveal..
I don't remember any creature in that area that hummed in the area around the waterwheel and the cave. Was the creater in a different area?

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