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The List 2008: Comments and Surprises #355837
07/05/08 07:42 PM
07/05/08 07:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 15,943
Upper Arlington, Ohio
Space Quest Fan Offline OP
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Well what does everybody think of this years list? What was rated too high and what was rated too low? I was just wondering what eveyone thought. I was impressed at how well the older gmaes like Grim Fandango, Gabriel Knight 2, and Sanitarium did this year. The biggest surprise to me is that I expected the Monkey Island,Simon the Sorcerer, and Discworld games get a few more mentions. What surprised you?


It's nice to be important but it is much more important to be nice.
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Space Quest Fan] #355867
07/05/08 09:08 PM
07/05/08 09:08 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 77,812
In the Naughty Corner
BrownEyedTigre Offline
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Hmmmmm....I am not really surprised at the results as much as I am a little dissapointed that many games mentioned are so very old. I hope every year that it will become a bit more current.

Ana wave


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Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: BrownEyedTigre] #355957
07/06/08 05:37 AM
07/06/08 05:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,997
UK
Rushes Offline
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I was surprised that an old game such as Grim Fandango could jump up 9 places from last year's #12 to this year's #3. Similarly, Riven also did very well, rising from #15 to #5. Lots of new members voting, no doubt. smile

I expected Culpa Innata to rank higher than it did.

Good to see The Lost Crown in at #7. (Although it didn't quite manage to make it onto my own list, I had too many others squawking for attention.) grin

But only 2 new games of the past year in the top 20?


"Bleat, Watson -- unmitigated bleat!" ~ Sherlock Holmes
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Rushes] #356014
07/06/08 08:42 AM
07/06/08 08:42 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 557
Dublin, Ireland
metzomagic Offline
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Quote:
But only 2 new games of the past year in the top 20?


This doesn't surprise me at all. In fact, the only reason a lot of games are on that list is because people played them most recently, and they are fresh in the mind when trying to come up with a list of games that you would recommend.

How else would the decidedly mediocre Jack Keane make it into the list (of what are supposed to be your favourite games of all time, remember?), right underneath Gabriel Knight 3, which really is an enduring classic... unless I'm missing the point, and this is instead supposed to be a list of "games that I played recently and would recommend because nobody's making anything really good any more"

I've only played a few adventure games in the past five years that made any sort of lasting impression on me. They would be:

Syberia II
Still Life
The Moment of Silence
Secret Files: Tunguska
DreamFall: The Longest Journey
The Lost Crown

And that's a pretty sad indictment of our favourite genre. IMO, most of the stuff that's being produced nowadays is all flash and very little substance. That would be, like:

Anything Frogwares ever made
Keepsake (very nice graphics, sorry about the puzzles)
Dead Reefs (seriously flawed controls and obtuse puzzles)
Darkness Within: In Pursuit of Loath Nolder (meh)

Of course, I realise that every game is going to have its fans. We all have different tastes. And the list does provide some good recommendations if you apply some filtering. From the reviews I've read, Culpa Innata may be worth seeking out...

*sigh* Oh well, at least there's flotsam's Dark Side list to look forward to,
MetzO'Magic


Now playing:
The Witcher

Running old games in XP/Vista? Then visit Steve's XP Corner!
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: metzomagic] #356046
07/06/08 09:31 AM
07/06/08 09:31 AM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 26,917
Stony Brook, New York, USA
Becky Offline
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The List allows a compilation of various gamer's favorites and/or the games they would recommend to others. Some people lean towards recommending the newer games (myself included) because in general it is easier to get them to run on the current crop of computers. grin

I also lean towards recommending newer games, because I want the developers to continue to create new games.

Newer games may have been played more recently by some gamers -- but they are also LESS likely to have made it to the computers of many gamers overall than a game that was released, say, three years ago. In that sense, it's actually harder for a brand new game to garner lots of votes -- especially one that's released in the last 2 or 3 months before The List is voted on.

Any game that garners a substantial number of votes means that, to a portion of the adventure gaming public, it's a game worth trying. Sometimes, if you like analyzing the details, it's helpful to look at the individual lists posted on the voting thread and see what another gamer with similar tastes has also listed, as tastes do differ.

Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Becky] #356052
07/06/08 09:43 AM
07/06/08 09:43 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 582
cornwall england
old lady Offline
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Well said Becky. thumbsup Amazing that Lost Crown got so many votes when it is not due for release in the UK until July 18th, not sure about the rest of the world.


Has any one seen any little gray cells around as I think I've lost some? Reward for finder.
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: old lady] #356095
07/06/08 10:48 AM
07/06/08 10:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 29,493
United Kingdom
Mad Offline
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Hi smile

Whilst I'm definitely in favour of recommending some of the latest games I've played and enjoyed, I wouldn't necessarily put them on the list I give flotsam.
I thought THAT list had to reflect the games a person had enjoyed playing the most out of ALL the games they'd ever played think

Has the criteria been altered then ??

If old games that can be difficult to get running are not to be included maybe it would be best to say so in advance.
Such a guide line would certainly change the list I would submit lol

Personally I don't think it does "modern" developers the least bit of harm to see what kind of older games might be topping flotsam's chart if that chart is supposed to reflect gamers' preferences.

Ahhhhhhh !!
But maybe preferences aren't always the same as recommendations.
Is that where a difference of "listings" might lie ??

Cheers.

Mad wave


Last edited by Mad; 07/06/08 10:57 AM. Reason: Had a thought !! Yeah, well ....

Time : The Most Precious Commodity
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Space Quest Fan] #356118
07/06/08 11:12 AM
07/06/08 11:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 37,562
near Yosemite in California
Marian Offline
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I thought The Lost Crown was terrific, and I'm still playing most of the newer adventures. But my criteria for the list was, simply, the best adventure games ever; and, in all conscience, I couldn't recommend something new over something older merely due to the fact that the older game might take an additional fifteen or twenty minutes to get running. I'm actually very glad to see so many older games on the list, because it demonstrates that others share my view that quality and excellence are worth what is sometimes a little bit of extra effort (or, to put it another way, I'm not going to recommend a book published in the last year as one of the best of all time, rather than Jane Eyre, just because the newer book might be more "accessible" on some levels).

So, I thought the list was a pretty good mix of the newer and the older games. It breaks my heart, though, when I contemplate that there may be some avid adventure-game fans out there who will balk at experiencing Pandora Directive, for example, because it might require DOSBox, and who will have to settle for some newer games that don't even come close to Pandora Directive in terms of value and entertainment. And that is why I consider metzomagic's and inferno's websites on this subject (that of getting older games running), invaluable, and a great service to gamers. wave

Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Marian] #356124
07/06/08 11:28 AM
07/06/08 11:28 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 77,812
In the Naughty Corner
BrownEyedTigre Offline
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Mad, here were the guidelines:

Quote:
The method is simple. You list 20 games you would recommend to someone looking for opinions on which games to play. They might not be your own top 20 games but they might be. You might decide instead to recommend a cross-section of styles or types, from all the games you have played. You might not recommend one of your personal favourites because your passion for the game is too much a result of your own idiosyncracies - not everyone likes 20 myst clones. You also might not recommend it because it is notoriously hard to get running on anything later than an abacus, scummv and dosbox notwithstanding.
But there is no rule that says you can’t; it is entirely up to you.


There is no wrong or right, my preference leans towards mixing in the new ones that are good so that folks go out and buy them and try them. If I was a developer I would feel very discouraged if I no matter what I did, I would always be second rate. I like to give them a boost of encouragement and let them know that they are doing a fine job.

Ana wave



Don't feed the Trolls
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: BrownEyedTigre] #356139
07/06/08 11:47 AM
07/06/08 11:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 29,493
United Kingdom
Mad Offline
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Hi smile

"I like to give them a boost of encouragement and let them know that they are doing a fine job"

I personally don't feel that our submissions to flotsam's list should be compromised because of the chance that a new developer might be disappointed with what he sees there ....

Maybe we should start a separate thread for newer releases only that would allow players to give their opinions all in the one place - for any developers that happen to be looking in ??

Although new developers that DO look in on any kind of regular basis will already know that Gameboomer members are some of their greatest supporters thumbsup

Cheers.

Mad wave


Time : The Most Precious Commodity
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Mad] #356146
07/06/08 11:57 AM
07/06/08 11:57 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 77,812
In the Naughty Corner
BrownEyedTigre Offline
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In the Naughty Corner
Mad, I feel you are getting defensive where it is not necessary to do so. As has been stated, there is no right or wrong. This thread asked for comments and surprises, and we are stating them. No one is picking on anyone nor saying that anyones opinion is wrong.

Ana wave





Don't feed the Trolls
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: BrownEyedTigre] #356202
07/06/08 02:31 PM
07/06/08 02:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 29,493
United Kingdom
Mad Offline
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Hi BrownEyedTigre smile

I don't feel I have anything to be defensive about and I am certainly not accusing anyone of being right or wrong.

I was merely following up and offering my comments on the post in which you talk about new developers possibly getting discouraged.

This led me to question the purpose of flotsam's list.

I had always considered it to be a way of taking note and sharing the titles of the best loved or highest recommended games by members (purely to see which games attracted the most mentions) for the benefit of members.
I had never considered that it was to be a sounding board for new developers as that could surely change which games people might include in their selections.

Perhaps it would have been better to have followed up and given my opinion in a separate thread.

Cheers.

Mad wave


Time : The Most Precious Commodity
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Mad] #356204
07/06/08 02:39 PM
07/06/08 02:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 15,943
Upper Arlington, Ohio
Space Quest Fan Offline OP
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I must say Lost Crown was a surprise for me. I had only heard of it recently and it seems like I need to give it a try after so many people had it on their lists. thumbsup


It's nice to be important but it is much more important to be nice.
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Space Quest Fan] #356207
07/06/08 02:49 PM
07/06/08 02:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 140
S
smulan Offline
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I´m a little surprised that nintendo ds is represented by 2 games only - each with one (my) vote. (smiley)
Haven't you heard DS is the future of adventuregaming? (smiley two)

Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: smulan] #356212
07/06/08 02:58 PM
07/06/08 02:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15,022
Northeast NJ
Darleen03 Offline
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I'm a little confused about the whole list of 2008 smirk

I thought 2008 means newer or games played a little before 2008..
There are alot of Great games from 2005 to 2008...

If I'm wrong...Please someone correct me...Its just that every year this list is done...There are always OLD games from 1995 put on the list...Is this Fair duh

thanks


Luv Dar


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Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Darleen03] #356223
07/06/08 03:09 PM
07/06/08 03:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 26,917
Stony Brook, New York, USA
Becky Offline
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Darleen -- you can vote for old adventure games or new adventure games while voting for The List. It's completely up to you.

Flotsam explains the voting at the beginning of the list here. In some of the examples, flotsam mentions the Tex Murphy games, which are older games, for instance.

As flotsam says in his initial post at the link above:

Quote:
No game is excluded, if it meets the criteria of being an adventure game. We all know what that is when we see it, so don’t get too hung up on the detail.


Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Becky] #356232
07/06/08 03:17 PM
07/06/08 03:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15,022
Northeast NJ
Darleen03 Offline
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Thanks, Becky

I just thought maybe its getting a little old every year voting for the same old games....The newer games I think doesn't have a chance against some of the older games...

For example: I did love, & enjoy Sanitarium, but I don't feel its fair to have that game on the list after some years gone by..

Just my thoughts.. think


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Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Mad] #356248
07/06/08 03:35 PM
07/06/08 03:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,468
london uk
chrissie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mad
.......

This led me to question the purpose of flotsam's list.

I had always considered it to be a way of taking note and sharing the titles of the best loved or highest recommended games by members (purely to see which games attracted the most mentions) for the benefit of members.
I had never considered that it was to be a sounding board for new developers as that could surely change which games people might include in their selections.
.........


Hi Mad wave flotsam set some basic guidelines which clearly stated that your list of game recommendations don't have to necessarily include your own personal favourites but, it was up to the individual. So no rights or wrongs!

To me the purpose is to compile a cross-section of games we have each enjoyed playing that other players may also enjoy.

I have personally included a few older games, many more recent to newer ones & a few from Independant Developers. Not because I am carrying a torch for any of them, but because I enjoyed playing them all immensely & I hope that they can all be played on more up-to-date systems.

Unfortunately the latter was a big consideration for me as, aside from the more modern games with bugs/action sequences, I see many older games listed which are problematic or impossible to play on modern systems. E.g. what is the point of several people recommending "Amber" to me - I for one can't play that on the system I've got!

While it's interesting to see many older games being listed, how useful are recommendations of games that are either difficult to get hold of or to get running? smile


Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Becky] #356256
07/06/08 03:48 PM
07/06/08 03:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 557
Dublin, Ireland
metzomagic Offline
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Originally Posted By: Becky
The List allows a compilation of various gamer's favorites and/or the games they would recommend to others. Some people lean towards recommending the newer games (myself included) because in general it is easier to get them to run on the current crop of computers. grin

I also lean towards recommending newer games, because I want the developers to continue to create new games.

Newer games may have been played more recently by some gamers -- but they are also LESS likely to have made it to the computers of many gamers overall than a game that was released, say, three years ago. In that sense, it's actually harder for a brand new game to garner lots of votes -- especially one that's released in the last 2 or 3 months before The List is voted on.

Any game that garners a substantial number of votes means that, to a portion of the adventure gaming public, it's a game worth trying. Sometimes, if you like analyzing the details, it's helpful to look at the individual lists posted on the voting thread and see what another gamer with similar tastes has also listed, as tastes do differ.


Well, what Becky says makes a lot of sense. All I was trying to say was... that The List seems to be a bit cluttered with *very average* stuff that's on there only because it was just recently released. And it doesn't give the developers valuable feedback if you 'vote' for their stuff this way, when it isn't actually very good, right?

OK, so the older stuff may be a bit tougher to get running on newer systems. But some of us techies that lurk here can help out with that, no? rolleyes

Regards,
MetzO'Magic


Now playing:
The Witcher

Running old games in XP/Vista? Then visit Steve's XP Corner!
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: metzomagic] #356262
07/06/08 03:56 PM
07/06/08 03:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 77,812
In the Naughty Corner
BrownEyedTigre Offline
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Originally Posted By: metzomagic
[
Well, what Becky says makes a lot of sense. All I was trying to say was... that The List seems to be a bit cluttered with *very average* stuff that's on there only because it was just recently released. And it doesn't give the developers valuable feedback if you 'vote' for their stuff this way, when it isn't actually very good, right?

Regards,
MetzO'Magic


I would never put a game on my list that I did not think was great. My new ones were most definitely games that I would love to see set as standard for others. I have bookshelves overflowing with games here, so I was not lacking in choices.

Ana


Don't feed the Trolls
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Darleen03] #356301
07/06/08 05:26 PM
07/06/08 05:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 18,262
Massachusetts
GBC Offline
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I agree Darleen....Wouldn't it be nice to have two seperate lists. One for the all-time best and one for the best games of the year. I have played some really fabulous games way back but I have recently played some really fantastic ones. Lost Crown for one--yet Syberia was incredible-so it's really hard to combine the two . Good for the older games but I think the newer games need to be recognized more . With more of us running Win Vista--most of the older games won't play anyway. idea


Gail
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: GBC] #356312
07/06/08 06:06 PM
07/06/08 06:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 26,917
Stony Brook, New York, USA
Becky Offline
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Stony Brook, New York, USA
Metzo -- I should defend to the death your right to say that four of my choices for this year's list are "...all flash and very little substance." lol But I also strongly disagree with your assessment of them, or I wouldn't have voted for them.

GBC -- flotsam already does this list for us and the DarkSide List for us. It is a tremendous amount of work. Hours and hours, actually.

Yet another vote, for games from the past year only, would add even more work, and I'm not sure that the results would be much different than if you went through the current final List we just finished and noted the games that released in 2007/2008.

I do understand that it's difficult to compare games that are ten or more years apart. But 20 choices does afford the chance to include both new and old games on everyone's list.

Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: Becky] #356332
07/06/08 07:22 PM
07/06/08 07:22 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 557
Dublin, Ireland
metzomagic Offline
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Becky, hi,

Look, I know I've ruffled some fur here, but all I'm trying to say is... I have seen a marked decline in the quality of adventure games being produced in the last 5 years or so. To lend some perspective to this observation, I have about 100 of these games sitting on my shelf, and have been reviewing them semi-professionally since... circa 1997.

Because I consider my gaming time to be valuable, I try to read reviews from a few reputable sites before I opt to purchase a game. Focusing on the past 3 years, this practice has led me to play exactly *5 adventure games* in those 3 years, which were:

2006
----
Keepsake (because the graphics looked really good, I thought I might review it for Quandary. Alas, I disliked the puzzle design so much that I opted to let someone else review it because I would have trashed it)

Dreamfall (not your typical adventure, but the story was so good it turned out to be another 5-star effort from Ragnar)

Secret Files: Tunguska (finally, good graphics *and* good puzzles. A rare find these days)

2007
----
Secrets of Atlantis (again, nice graphics but weak puzzles)

2008
----
The Lost Crown (another solid effort from Jonathan Boakes)

The main point here is that whereas before I would have played at least 10 adventure games or so a year, I'm down to playing about 1 or 2 a year. The rest of my time I spend *replaying older games* or playing RPGs.

In fact, this is one of the primary reasons Rosemary and Gordon are throwing in the towel over at Quandary: the games just aren't fun to play any more. It's typically more of a chore than a joy to play (or should I say, slog through) one of the latest releases.

Far be it from me to dis games just because they are new. I just don't think they make 'em like they used to sad

Has anyone else noticed this trend, or is it just me?!

MetzO'Magic


Now playing:
The Witcher

Running old games in XP/Vista? Then visit Steve's XP Corner!
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: metzomagic] #356335
07/06/08 07:28 PM
07/06/08 07:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 77,812
In the Naughty Corner
BrownEyedTigre Offline
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In the Naughty Corner
Now I am more confused than ever. If you haven't played them, how can you judge them?

Ana


Don't feed the Trolls
Re: The List 2008: Comments and Surprises [Re: BrownEyedTigre] #356338
07/06/08 07:31 PM
07/06/08 07:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 352
Athens, Greece
alkis21 Offline
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Athens, Greece
Thanks to the people who mentioned my game, I appreciate it.


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