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Death of a genre??? #1090723
11/25/16 06:48 AM
11/25/16 06:48 AM
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lynthorpe Offline OP
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Is anyone still making 3pp P&C games any more? Some highly anticipated games recently have been a real disappointment. Lost Horizon 2, Yesterday Origins and Silence, to name a few, seem to have strayed from the path.
Whilst I appreciate there is a large audience for quick-time action games, I also know from reading posts on the GB forum, there are still quite a few of us who love things like Broken Sword, Deponia, MI (of course!), BoUT, Nelly Cootalot etc but no one seems to be making this type of game now. Is the genre dead?

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1090748
11/25/16 10:22 AM
11/25/16 10:22 AM
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southeast USA
Jenny100 Offline
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A few recent point-and-clicks...

Kathy Rain
Barrow Hill: The Dark Path
The Last Crown: Midnight Horror
Demetrios
Order of the Thorne
etc.

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1090754
11/25/16 10:43 AM
11/25/16 10:43 AM
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lynthorpe Offline OP
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Thanks Jenny100. I'm not that into first person games nor "old school". Yeah, yeah, yeah I know I'm really picky!!! Demetrios looks like it might be fun tho.
I'm just generally concerned about where the genre is headed these days. Why are so few around? Why is no one making games like the ones I mentioned?
By the way, Discworld trilogy would be great for remastering!

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1090756
11/25/16 10:53 AM
11/25/16 10:53 AM
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Mainly because making this sort of game is extremely time-consuming and the market is really not that big. It's tough to be able to bring a full game all the way through, which is why so many episodic games are springing up (I can understand why people aren't so keen on those though - neither are developers on the whole, but sometimes it's the only practical way to go ahead).

As an example, I would say that The Journey Down as successful. But even they had to go back to Kickstarter to fund the third and final episode. (I really would recommend playing The Journey Down if you haven't already btw.)

I speak as one who has been involved in several ambitious projects that would, I think, have been up your street (for instance The Journey of Iesir), that have had in the end had to be cancelled. Unless you have funding up front to set up a studio, it's really, really tough to make a complete, high quality pointandclick. in your spare time, and the teams that try to do so are usually based across the globe and never meet in real life, are in various time zones which can make communication less than ideal. I think really the best chance is for teams based in countries with low costs of living to crowd-fund initially.

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1090758
11/25/16 11:17 AM
11/25/16 11:17 AM
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I've heard the death of a genre for the last 10 years and yet they are still developing some great adventures. I don't know what 3PP is?


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Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: BrownEyedTigre] #1090759
11/25/16 11:29 AM
11/25/16 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted By: BrownEyedTigre
I've heard the death of a genre for the last 10 years and yet they are still developing some great adventures. I don't know what 3PP is?


3rd Person Perspective I'm guessing?

The genre will never die of course, but in terms of mainstream publishing, it will probably never be a big player again. There are a lot of great games set to come out!

I was thinking though that the original question was related to a more modern graphical style than many of the popular 3rd person games that come out? Personally I still love 320x200 resolution! smile My hardware is useless and can't handle much anyway.

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: CaptainD] #1090806
11/25/16 06:15 PM
11/25/16 06:15 PM
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United Kingdom
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I, too, have heard the "Adventure Games Are Dead" stuff over and over for years. In fact I've heard it so many times it's become laughable !!
Maybe there aren't so many of the calibre we were spoiled by 10 or 20 years ago but for me there is still a good deal of Adventuring choice out there yes

Certainly there seem to be plenty of Indie Developers - around and still coming up - who are crafting good games for us.
And the now BIG companies would surely have started out as Indies ??
Look at Sierra's start ....

Plus many of the creators of Casuals are upping their production standards and who's to say some of those won't burst out with a fully fledged Adventure in the future ??

Yes. I concede that Adventure games have changed somewhat but not for the worse in that many aspects and in a volatile computer gaming market nothing is going to remain static whistle

I am still very much enjoying Adventure Games dance


Time : The Most Precious Commodity
Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1090836
11/25/16 11:42 PM
11/25/16 11:42 PM
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The "Adventure Games Are Dead" mantra started almost exactly 20 years ago, due to the commercial failure of some major adventure titles and the increased popularity of action games like Doom and Quake.

It's true that fewer adventure games are released now than in the early days of the personal computer, but I do believe that the average quality of the games released nowadays is much better. And there are still plenty of talented and very devoted game creators that have improved the genre since its "death", and most likely will continue to do so for a long time.

And we're still here, aren't we? If what they said 20 years ago would have been true, we wouldn't be sitting here discussing this, and certainly not on a forum like this.

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1090843
11/26/16 01:26 AM
11/26/16 01:26 AM
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Long Beach NSW Australia
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In my humble opinion, the proliferation of means to make and distribute games, rather than rely on a commercial boxed release, has seen adventure games flourish. Certainly they can be a mixed bag, and may not meet your preferred sub-genre or configuration (fps, tps, keyboard/mouse etc, but I think generally we are spoiled for choice.


Quantity has a quality all of its own
Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1090846
11/26/16 04:56 AM
11/26/16 04:56 AM
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lynthorpe Offline OP
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Very true. We would not be discussing this if it were dead and I am always delighted when a new game comes out (Journey Down is one of my faves btw and, yes, by 3pp I mean third person). Perhaps I have noticed more since taking early retirement a couple of years ago so more time on my hands.
I suppose the point I was making is that many of us have neither the reflexes, nor the inclination, to play QTEs, and many games now, although billed as adventure, seem to have a fair amount of this (King's Quest being a case in point) without the ability to skip and progress with the game. I hope that games in development, like Gibbous for example, don't fall into this trap.
I appreciate all the comments and take all points on board. I guess I'm just a dinosaur and very much hope I will be proved wrong in the future.

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1091136
11/29/16 12:04 AM
11/29/16 12:04 AM
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For a 'DEAD' genre there is a whole lot of life still in the bones.

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: BubbaJake] #1091147
11/29/16 05:26 AM
11/29/16 05:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
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United Kingdom
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Yep !!!! lol lol lol


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Dilution of a genre... [Re: lynthorpe] #1091173
11/29/16 11:03 AM
11/29/16 11:03 AM
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southeast USA
Jenny100 Offline
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It's more like "Dilution" of a genre... There may still be games like you want, but it's harder than ever to find what you want (or are able to play) because so many dexterity-oriented sub-genres are now considered adventure games. QTE's are being included in games that would otherwise have been appropriate for people with low dexterity, and the proliferation of autosave-only (instead of allowing manual saves) makes it difficult if not impossible to get a saved game from someone else to skip what amounts to an early and permanent game over.

Re: Dilution of a genre... [Re: Jenny100] #1091175
11/29/16 11:13 AM
11/29/16 11:13 AM
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near Yosemite in California
Marian Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jenny100
It's more like "Dilution" of a genre... There may still be games like you want, but it's harder than ever to find what you want (or are able to play) because so many dexterity-oriented sub-genres are now considered adventure games. QTE's are being included in games that would otherwise have been appropriate for people with low dexterity, and the proliferation of autosave-only (instead of allowing manual saves) makes it difficult if not impossible to get a saved game from someone else to skip what amounts to an early and permanent game over.


I think that's a very accurate analysis, Jenny. Going along with what you said, I am sometimes now confronted with keyboard commands due to the game having been designed with porting to console/mobile as well - games that would be more suited to the use of a controller than a mouse and keyboard. So, dilution of a genre is a good way to describe it.

So, the games a lot of us want are still there, but they can indeed be harder to find.

Re: Dilution of a genre... [Re: lynthorpe] #1091179
11/29/16 12:24 PM
11/29/16 12:24 PM
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Actually I recall lots of the original adventures had actiony quick action parts or stealth or other very difficult areas for me to get through. I think we tend to forget how they were because we are tired of it.


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Re: Dilution of a genre... [Re: BrownEyedTigre] #1091196
11/29/16 02:16 PM
11/29/16 02:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2000
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southeast USA
Jenny100 Offline
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Originally Posted By: BrownEyedTigre
Actually I recall lots of the original adventures had actiony quick action parts or stealth or other very difficult areas for me to get through.

Not that many at the time when I started playing, and certainly not to this degree. There's a big difference between catching the tree elevator in Myst and coping with QTE's throughout an entire game. Some of the "stealth" in older games was simply knowing where to step rather than an actual "stealth" sequence that tracks how fast you move and when you move in relation to other things. Zork Nemesis had an annoying elevator puzzle that required a slowdown program or it would zip by faster than humanly possible on a PC only 4 years newer than the game. However it was not originally a difficult thing on computers in 1996, and the game was certainly not full of similar sequences. The game had actual puzzles to recommend it. And if you didn't want to use a slowdown program, saved games were easily transferred -- no complicated manipulations of an autosave that's buried in some sub-sub-subfolder of a hidden folder.

While there are still adventure games that don't require dexterity, they are harder to find (or filter for) than when I started playing adventure games around 1999. Games like Lost Horizon 2 and Silence: Whispered World 2 have QTE's where the original games did not. People who don't like dexterity challenges are being chased over to Casual games, where the developers do include things like puzzle skips. Too many adventure developers don't provide skips because they personally think the dexterity requirement is too low to warrant a skip. You'd think the developers of Lost Horizon 2 would have known better.

Re: Dilution of a genre... [Re: lynthorpe] #1091244
11/30/16 04:31 AM
11/30/16 04:31 AM
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Wales
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Such a pity about Lost Horizon 2. I wonder how sales of this did, pitched against the first game.

I thought the first game was a masterpiece but I didn't give LH 2 a second glance once i knew what the gameplay was likely to be.

I wonder if developers realise that changing the gameplay completely changes the potential market. They must do surely. Maybe the newer market is bigger?

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1091246
11/30/16 05:25 AM
11/30/16 05:25 AM
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lynthorpe Offline OP
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Exactly!!! The last handful of posts have illustrated the point I was making. The odd timed event, such as getting the grog to the prison before it melted all the mugs in the Secret of MI may have been a bit frustrating but it was achievable. Even my favourite series, the Book of Unwritten Tales trilogy, had things like potion stirring and rain-dancing but stayed true to the genre in essence.

I too would be very curious to know if Silence and LH2 have done as well as the first games. Have the developers managed to engage the shoot-em-up generation or just lost their original supporters?

And thank you all for taking the time to contribute. First time I've ever instigated a real discussion like this. blush

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1173705
01/04/19 11:35 AM
01/04/19 11:35 AM
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lynthorpe Offline OP
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OMG it's over 2 years since I started this thread but I'm still on the same old soapbox! I realised I only purchased 2 games in 2018, Detective Gallo, which was OK but a bit short and Tsioque...far too much QTE for me...again, although I did manage to finish it.

I'm sure I'm not the only one hoping (probably in vain) for another Book of Unwritten Tales after that cliffhanger ending but what do they do? Try to fund it with a kickstarter for another game which failed dismally instead of just getting on and trying to fund the game we actually would play.

I believe there was also some plan to continue the Broken Sword series but I haven't seen anything more.

I know I'm a picky old dinosaur but is there anything out there really worth playing? I have to content myself with a lot of casual games these days but they don't feed my craving.

HEEEEELP! frown cry

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1173709
01/04/19 01:29 PM
01/04/19 01:29 PM
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Well... Sorry for the self-promotion but we made our game specifically to be like the third person adventure games we loved in the 90; it's gone down extremely well with AG fans on the whole, particularly among long-time AG fans... So have a look, download the demo and see if it fits the bill for you.

https://captaind.itch.io/captain-disaster-in-death-has-a-million-stomping-boots

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1173734
01/04/19 05:34 PM
01/04/19 05:34 PM
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Have you looked at the games on the Adventure Games Studio database. Most of these are third person games - some are a bit ropey but a number are pretty professional. I make the occasional game using this system, and my largely third person adventure, "Adventure Island" is also on the GameBoomers Free Games list.


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Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: Elentgirl] #1173736
01/04/19 06:01 PM
01/04/19 06:01 PM
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near Yosemite in California
Marian Offline
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The only new adventure games I played last year were Unavowed and The Birdwatcher. I have heard good things about Unforeseen Incidents and Lamplight City, both of which I intend to play one day.

Otherwise, I played older adventure games from GOG as well as replayed some of my Nancy Drew games.

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1173761
01/04/19 08:45 PM
01/04/19 08:45 PM
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Long Beach NSW Australia
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I would have thought any of the Wadjet Eye games would fit the bill, provided the graphic style is ok.
And in case you liked Neverhood, play Armikrog.
Apologies if I have misunderstood the parameters


Quantity has a quality all of its own
Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1173775
01/04/19 11:30 PM
01/04/19 11:30 PM
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Melbourne, Australia
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As my SSD hard drive has only limited space for playing games, I've had to limit myself to playing games that don't use huge amounts of disk space, so have mostly played old games over the last year.

Just before Christmas however, GOG finally got Forgotton Anne, a platform adventure I'd been eying off for some time on Steam, and as they had it at a discounted price I purchased it and downloaded it.

I haven't played a platform game for decades and even then was not that good at the jumping and climbing, but decided to give Forgotton Anne a bash.

I'm glad I did. As well as having beautiful graphics, it also has a great story that compels you to continue playing through thick and thin. It is a long game and much to my surprise was not all that hard to play after mastering the platform moves on the keyboard (which are a bit clunky). It's a forgiving game, for if you fall you don't die, but can try and try again at leisure to progress. There are only two tricky parts where quickness is important. You cannot manually save, but auto saves execute fairly regularly when you reach certain locations in the game.

Admittedly I did consult walkthroughs, both video and text, when I was stuck and needed a hint on how to execute a move.

It plays seamlessly and is like an interactive Ghibli Studio movie. It's the most enjoyable and engaging game I've played for ages and I highly recommend it to any adventure gamer.

Re: Death of a genre??? [Re: lynthorpe] #1173783
01/05/19 01:12 AM
01/05/19 01:12 AM
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Chicago
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Thanks for your info on Forgotten Anne Winx. I looked at the game several times but declined buying it because of the platforming. Maybe someday when it is really cheap I'll take a chance.

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