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Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: sierramindy] #547848
09/16/09 12:52 PM
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Personally, so long as I'm having fun, it doesn't matter what you call 'em! wink


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Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Feeb88] #547856
09/16/09 01:16 PM
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rotfl You people crack me up! lol


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Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: GreyFuss] #547878
09/16/09 02:55 PM
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Becky Offline
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"Myst-clone" was a term coined by critics -- it implicitly dimished Myst-style games.

Were some later adventure games modeled on Myst? Yes. Were some also modeled on King's Quest? Yes.

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Becky] #547916
09/16/09 04:30 PM
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What about all those "Adventure clones?"

Adventure games are named after the game ***Adventure***, not because they are any more "adventurous" than other genres.

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Jenny100] #547921
09/16/09 04:39 PM
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This seems to be a lot of arguing over semantics. Read the reviews of games before you purchase them. If the game you're interested in is primarily puzzle driven, and that type of game isn't your cup of tea, don't buy it.

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: bawdy] #547948
09/16/09 06:19 PM
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Thank You All...For your opinions on what is an Adventure Game vs Puzzle Games...

Everyone has a different view on the subject.

To me an Adventure has to be more then Hard core puzzles. If a game has only puzzles to get from point A To point B..That is not in my opinion an Adventure Game..That is a Puzzle Driven Adventure... Oh Well...

Thanks, Again yay


Luv Dar


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Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Darleen03] #547954
09/16/09 06:59 PM
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"Puzzle driven Adventure" is not the same thing as "Puzzle game." It's fine to prefer one type of adventure game over another, but it's important we're all speaking the same language or readers will get very confused about what you're talking about.

Say everyone used their own personal definition of "Adventure game" based on what they liked or didn't like in a game --
Player 1 doesn't like dialogue, so no game with dialogue in it is an adventure,
Player 2 doesn't like fetch quests and chores, so no game with fetch quests in it is an adventure,
Player 3 has no sense of direction in games, so no game with a complex gameworld is an adventure,
Player 4 doesn't like managing large inventories, so no game with a large inventory is an adventure,
Player 5 doesn't like keyboard control, so no game that isn't point-and-click is an adventure,
etc.
Nobody would know what anyone was talking about.

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Darleen03] #547989
09/16/09 08:52 PM
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Apologies for being overly simplistic but to me any game that offers an adventure is an adventure game. smile

But on a more technical level i would say that for me the defining aspects of the genre are an emphasis on exploration and storytelling and the absence of typical 'arcade' game elements. Any game that offers the former without (or with very little of) the latter is an adventure game.

Msyt offers thsoe two things and therefore to me would be an adventure game. The Ravenhearst games (as an example) don't offer them, and so would not be.

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Bondola_Bates] #548067
09/17/09 06:20 AM
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This is an "Adventure Game" to me:

(1) Story..Doesn't have to be a good story.
(2) Interaction. Whether it be characters or trees or plants or fish or a book or a phone conversation.
(3) Inventory. Big or small.
(4) Investigating places. Finding things..Discovery, to me is an "Adventure"
(5) Puzzles of any kind through out the game.

This is an "Puzzle game" to me:

(1) Puzzle after puzzle with beautiful scenic views. It should be label "Puzzle Adventure Game" because some might say you are on an Adventure Solving puzzles lol


Luv Dar


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Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Darleen03] #548305
09/17/09 06:51 PM
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Very similar to Darleen03 above.
I doubt that there is any simple definition of Adventure games since there are so many different types which are all Adventures. There are of course some exceptions which aren’t Adventures but are puzzle games and Action Adventures.
I actually prefer 3rd person games but I have no doubt that very many first person games are Adventures and that includes Myst and its several sequels
I think its ok for an adventure game to have 1 or 2 limited action sections or sections that need some speed or manipulation. Most adventures have a little of this but not too much or too difficult.
If they do have a lot of action sequences or several difficult ones then in my opinion it is an action-Adventure and not a pure Adventure.
I think that there are basically at least four aspects which determine whether a game is an adventure.
---- It must have a narrative of some sort. It does not necessarily have to be a very long story or a complicated one but it must be a decent one and not just an excuse for a story. Whether the narrative is carried forward mainly through dialogs or reading or inventory etc is not fundamental they can all be adventures of different sorts
---- The story must have some sort of definite ending to which the player strives to achieve. I does not have to be an absolute clear cut ending and can be somewhat ambiguous but it must have a definite end and the player must be tempted in whatever way to get there.
---- It must be basicly interactive and more than just a series of walkabouts admiring the scenery and locations etc
---- It must have some puzzles. Whether they are inventory based or individuals puzzles and what sort is again nor essential. But there must be a reasonable selection of puzzles for the player to overcome

There are some games which are just a series of different puzzles which are generally of different types not integrated into the game in any serious way and often of completely different types eg sliders, music puzzle. mazes. cryptograms, safes, torn up papers, codes, jig saws, etc etc.These games have no story at all or the flimsiest of stories just to create the feeling that it’s a game and not just a collection of puzzles.
Jewels of the oracle is a good example and Seventh Guest, Eleventh Hour although they have flimsy stories are nonetheless just a series of a couple of dozen different individual puzzles to overcome one by one , sometimes without even needing any order.
These and other such games are not Adventures but Puzzle Games.
That is not the case for Myst, Riven, Uru, and so on which inn my opinion are Adventures although of a different sort than many others

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Darleen03] #548333
09/17/09 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Darleen03
This is an "Adventure Game" to me:

(1) Story..Doesn't have to be a good story.
(2) Interaction. Whether it be characters or trees or plants or fish or a book or a phone conversation.
(3) Inventory. Big or small.
(4) Investigating places. Finding things..Discovery, to me is an "Adventure"
(5) Puzzles of any kind through out the game.

You've just described Myst, though the inventory consists of a single object. lol

Quote:
(1) Puzzle after puzzle with beautiful scenic views. It should be label "Puzzle Adventure Game" because some might say you are on an Adventure Solving puzzles

That might describe certain casual games, though some of them have ugly views of dumps and decrepit buildings instead of scenic views. razz

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Jenny100] #548382
09/18/09 12:20 AM
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Umm... hate to bring this up guys... (okay... well maybe I just want in on the fun)...

But is the adventure door securely shut on something like... say... 3 Cards to Midnight?

I know that hidden object games are certainly squarely in the "Casual" corner, but I was *so* excited to run out (or would that be "on" as in "on-line"?) and buy the NEW "Tex Murphy" game that I went and bought it even before I realized I was buying a download (I never did that before).

Anyhow, imagine my surprise to find a hidden object game!

As it just so happens... I *love* hidden object games and have since I was a kid with my mom finding all the hidden pictures in the "Highlights" magazine at the dentist's office. (I kid thee not!)

SO...

I loved playing 3 Cards to Midnight. I was disappointed that it was only hidden object puzzles (though I liked them), but the biggest thing to me was...

THE QUALITY OF THE WRITING!

Not only is the plot very good, but when you combine that with all of the intricacies of the story as revealed by the cards and their symbolism and meaning... the game is of very high quality in the fun that adventure gamers hold dear.

SO... sure... casually speaking... 3 Cards to Midnight can't be an adventure game because it's hidden object game (although, to be fair, there are some other nice puzzles too).

But... ya know?... sorry I can't find a better way to put this... but for writing?...

BEATS THE HECK OUT OF A LOT OF ***ADVENTURE*** GAMES I'VE PLAYED!

Sorry for shouting but I had to get that out of my system (or it would crash for sure).

And so finally, my fellow gamers, my humble point is this:

Dig down deep.
What do you feel when you are playing an "adventure" game?
I feel like I'm saying, "Mommy, tell me a bedtime story-- and let me guess and figure out how it goes at parts along the way."

Shaherezade was truly the mother of all adventure games, and she used a thousand and one puzzles.


"Learning to fly... and I'm trying to try..." Ritchie Havens (Tex Murphy: Overseer)
Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Raj] #548405
09/18/09 04:37 AM
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I think that many HO games are not at all good but some are really excellent and very many folk love them.
But I don't think that they can be rated as either Adventure or puzzle games.
I would say that they are in a third category namely Hidden Object or Casual games.

I suppose some of the more sophisticated could be called Hidden Objec Adventure or Hidden Object Puzzler or something just as some games are called Action Adventures.

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: harhan3] #604304
03/10/10 12:50 PM
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Hey everyone,

Remember this discussion? Already while it was going on I was thinking about writing a larger article on this topic, but only now have I finally done it. If you decide to read it, hopefully you'll find it an interesting addition to this thread.

Be warned though: I'm rather strict in my view about what an adventure game is. smile


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Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Ascovel] #604314
03/10/10 01:17 PM
03/10/10 01:17 PM
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Darleen03 Offline OP
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Thanks, Ascovel

I did enjoy the read..Many good points made yes


Luv Dar


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Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Darleen03] #604326
03/10/10 02:04 PM
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Adventure Game defintions are certainly subjective. When I first got into gaming (2001) I did so with Riven and Myst and played only similar games. I didn't even know that 3rd person games existed, never mind that they were considered adventures. lol
I think the difference between puzzle games and puzzle-centric adventures is the exploration and interaction. Hence, I wouldn't consider games like Pandora's Box or Jewels of the Oracle an adventure, but the Professor Layton games would be.

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: colpet] #604378
03/10/10 05:02 PM
03/10/10 05:02 PM
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Ascovel -- is there an example of a game that most people would think is an adventure game, but that the puzzles are of a logical-self-contained type that would put it outside your definition of an adventure game?

Does this make sense? lol

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Becky] #604393
03/10/10 05:56 PM
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Sentinel might be such a game, Becky. (Though I think quite a lot of people would agree with me in this case)

By my definition Sentinel is a puzzle game rather than an adventure game. It has a story and great looking locales, but the puzzles are purely puzzle game style.

But overall the definition was meant to be broad and inspire innovation in puzzle design.


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Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Ascovel] #604413
03/10/10 07:00 PM
03/10/10 07:00 PM
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Interesting. Ascovel, have you ever played Big Brain Wolf? I'm still trying to figure out if it could qualify as an adventure game -- you can click on items in the environments to get information about them, but you can't pick anything up. And all the puzzles are stand-alone mini-games.

Last edited by Becky; 03/10/10 07:00 PM.
Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Becky] #604629
03/11/10 11:27 AM
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I haven't played Big Brain Wolf. Again, it would depend on the puzzles in my opinion.

I'd love to see more of new kinds of puzzles that tease the same parts brain regions that the typical inventory puzzles do.


Come and visit A Hardy Developer's Journal for a regular dose of adventure games' creation and appreciation
Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Darleen03] #604653
03/11/10 12:27 PM
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I've been gaming for just about 25 years now, so I think my definition of the genres has become pretty strict over the years.

My definition of an adventure game is:

You play as a protagonist that exists in the game world.

You are either presented with a story, or you uncover it as you go along.

There can be action sequences, though I'd prefer if they were left out (I play adventure games to relax, not to push a lot of buttons)

You solve puzzles along the way. It doesn't really matter if they're inventory based or part of the world. However, and here's my most important distinction between puzzle and adventure, these puzzles have to be a part of the game world, actually be integrated into the world you're exploring, and not just there for the sake of having a puzzle.

I would definitely consider the Myst series adventure games. They were a bit atypical, since they didn't really have any of the traditional dialog we were used to. You didn't participate in conversations, you just listened in on them. Where the Myst games differed from other games at the time, were the style of the puzzles you solved. They were based very much on logic and math, and not the more traditional 'item A+B=result'. However, they were always integrated into the game world, and not just there for the sake of having a puzzle. Oh, and by the way, the Myst series has a very deep storyline, it's just not presented the way we're used to. You're not part of the story, but it's your job to uncover it.

A game like Big Brain Wolf is, for me at least, very much a puzzle game. While some of the puzzles you solve are loosely integrated with the task at hand, most of the time they're just there for the sake of having a puzzle. Definitely not a bad game, but doesn't fit my definition of an adventure game.

Anyway, that just about covers it I think smile


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Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Zimbo] #604726
03/11/10 03:36 PM
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The one word that keeps coming up when writing about Myst is that the puzzles are "logical" and right there is where I claim that means it is not an adventure, but a logical puzzle game with a story attached to the puzzles. A true adventure game isn't logical in any way, shape or form, because the puzzles are based on imagination and intuition (or hunch) and mind-reading (trying to figure out what the game maker was thinking when the solution isn't the same as one would expect) which can be somewhat annoying, but fun when its solved, even if one needs a walkthrough to get it. And yet another definition for adventure could be that it is a "light-hearted story mixed with danger, humor, lots of things and people to interact with and just a lot of fun to play. No mind-bending, boring puzzles which would appeal to a rocket scientist and a story line that is like reading history as it happened who knows when and only found in books. Well, that's my take and I'm hanging on to it.

Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: sierramindy] #604813
03/11/10 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted By: sierramindy
The one word that keeps coming up when writing about Myst is that the puzzles are "logical" and right there is where I claim that means it is not an adventure, but a logical puzzle game with a story attached to the puzzles.


Only some of the Myst puzzles are purely logical, most require imagination, intuition and mind-reading (like you say).

Also, while I really like your description of adventure game gameplay, I strongly disagree that "a true adventure game isn't logical in any way, shape or form". For example:

Scissors are a tool to cut flat, thin things, therefore I can cut this flat, thin object with them.

Thinking logical like that is essential to adventure games - it just isn't enough, because adventure game challenges go beyond that.


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Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: Ascovel] #604939
03/12/10 07:12 AM
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Quote:
No mind-bending, boring puzzles which would appeal to a rocket scientist and a story line that is like reading history as it happened who knows when and only found in books. Well, that's my take and I'm hanging on to it.

Please do not get so derogatory. It's fine for you to not like logic puzzles, but I love them, and I'm no rocket scientist.
I'm tired of this Myst vs. other adventures discussion (every forum has it's moments and there seems to be quite a few of them right now). You can take your stand, but don't belittle us gamers that like these games, and constantly feel like we have to defend them.

Last edited by colpet; 03/12/10 07:13 AM.
Re: Adventure Games & Puzzle Games [Re: colpet] #605041
03/12/10 12:46 PM
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Right on, colpet !!!! thumbsup


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